W3C Web Ontology Working Group IRC Chat Logs for 2002-07-01

14:01:06 Users on #webont: @logger_1

14:34:05 Users on #webont: logger_1 @DaveB

15:10:10 <DanC> hmmm...

15:10:19 <DaveB> howdy

15:10:28 <DanC> we didn't talk about whether to use IRC for this ftf or not.

15:10:39 <DaveB> the logger bot can stay here/go at your choice

15:11:36 <DanC> hmm... no network info in http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/people/dlm/webont/webontJuly.html

15:11:44 <DanC> oh well.

15:51:48 <DaveB> hi Jos

15:52:17 <JosD> Hi DaveB, are you here too?

15:52:27 <DaveB> I'm here in *bristol* ;)

15:52:43 <JosD> Nice, have a good time

15:55:27 <DaveB> well, this channel will be logged if webont cares to use it

15:55:35 <DaveB> no worries

15:56:40 <JosD> DaveB, what is that "=-=Mode #webont +o JosD by DaveB" actually?

15:57:19 <DaveB> you got operator priviledges

15:59:02 <JosD> DaveB, oh thanks, just don't know what to do with that...

15:59:11 <DaveB> don't worry about it then

16:03:53 <DaveB> DaveB has changed the topic to: webont f2f agenda http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf3.html

16:13:21 * RRSAgent is logging

16:16:17 <DaveB> have fun guys

16:17:34 <jhendler> jhendler has changed the topic to: webont f2f agenda http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ftf3.html log: http://www.w3.

16:18:03 <jhendler> jhendler has changed the topic to: webont f2f log at http://www.w3.org/2002/07/01-webont-irc

16:18:15 <jhendler> rrsagent, bookmark.

16:18:17 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2002/07/01-webont-irc#T16-18-15

16:24:18 <jhendler> Roll call: Guus, Ian, Mike , Jos, Jeff, Mike Sintek. Mike Smith, Marwon, Evan, Larry, Jim, Deb, Jonathan, Abigiail Agam, Pat Hayes, Volz

16:26:37 <jhendler> social details: dinner tonight at Italian Restaurant - coffee breaks, lunch in room

16:28:43 <jhendler> Raphael Volz has sent list of differences between the three writeups, this is distributed to participants.

16:30:01 <jhendler>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/0219.html

16:32:19 <jhendler> Deb - minimal changes - cardinality restricted to 0, 1 at least 1

16:33:06 <jhendler> inverse functional added

16:36:35 <jhendler> Guus - is everyone okay with the specific division of features?

16:37:20 <jhendler> Ian - disjoint is expressible from the current features (noted: not real easily) should we add it?

16:38:18 <jhendler> Deb - disjoint in Ontolingua - wasn't much, but she added a lot to get usage of consistency checking, etc.

16:51:15 <jhendler> Discussion of what sort of implementation techniques can be used

16:52:26 * DanC waves, apologizes for lateness

16:52:36 <jhendler> Ian - but OWL allows complex things - can do same in Owl-lite

16:56:31 * DanC wonders who's scribing; this is a good example to capture

16:57:52 <DanC> Smoked Salmon example.

16:58:20 <jhendler> Ian - smoked salmon -- if it is smoked and it is salmon can we say it is smoked salmon?

16:59:17 <DanC> "current language"? which is that?

16:59:45 <DanC> [several]: an interesting goal is a language that can be implemented with a horn-clause reasoner.

16:59:46 <jhendler> Danc - we're discussing Deb's document - "current language" is owl-lite as defined in that document

16:59:57 <jhendler> document is in the agenda - cited earlier

17:00:50 <jhendler> Discussion of whether we could restrict owl-lite a bit from where we are to make it simpler for languages like datalog, XSB, etc.

17:02:06 <DanC> [... discussion of which features conflict with this goal of implementing in a horn reasoner ... ]

17:12:03 <DanC> example: it seems to Ian that this can't be captured in horn logic: "the Person class is those things whose parents are Persons" and "BeerShopOwner subClassOf Person"

17:13:16 <jhendler> discussion as to whether we've added too many properties - Toulousse added a lot

17:13:44 <DanC> JimH asked how to say that using the proposed vocabulary. Anser: Person sameClassAs eachValueFrom parent Person. BeerShopOwner subClassOf Person.

17:14:20 <DanC> JeffH stipulated that it was hard, if at all possible, to capture that in horn clauses.

17:16:33 <jhendler> JimH - is it a hard change or a small change to implement OWL-lite in datalog?

17:20:28 <jhendler> discussion continues as to what kind of implementations people have in mind, and how they might interact

17:22:01 <jhendler> Guus - can we reformulate this in some actions we can address?

17:24:22 <jhendler> Discussion of completeness/incompleteness w/respect to Owl

17:30:52 <jhendler> Discussion of what kind of tools some people are using - examples

17:30:54 <DanC> jhendler: the way DanC describes entailment tests are hard to relate to, say, our instance creator. Our instance creator does exploit the logical aspects of the language...

17:31:42 <jhendler> Smoked Salmon ontology (from Jon Borden on XML-Dev) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jul/0005.html

17:35:04 <jhendler> Discussion of general goals of OWL :->

17:35:25 <jhendler> discussion of tests and test cases

17:39:14 <jhendler> Discussion of conformance and conformance coverage

17:42:06 <DanC> DanC: recently I've changed my mind about completeness... I think the Web community expects a certain (fairly weak) interoperable inference

17:42:36 <DanC> [which two things? lots of people are agreeing; important to write such things down]

17:43:10 <jhendler> Suggestion from Mike Dean - we allow sameclassas only between named classes in the OWL lite case

17:43:11 <DanC> MikeD: allow sameClassAs only with named classes

17:50:55 <jhendler> discussion of how to change the document

17:54:14 <jhendler> issues on table -

17:54:29 <jhendler> issue 1 - is the issue with respect to defined classes

17:54:38 <jhendler> issue 2 - adding of disjoint

17:57:19 <jhendler> issue 3 - dropping local/existential

17:57:58 * DanC would really like this use case for local existential in the meeting record; please let's have deb/Ian explain it

17:59:27 <DeborahMc> a local existential example includes a parent is a person who has a child who is a person

17:59:48 <DeborahMc> a simple alternative is someone who has a child who is a doctor

18:00:12 <DeborahMc> this should be named a parent of a doctor

18:00:26 <DanC> "Class descriptions can either be partial, indicating that the elements of the class satisfy at least the stated description and perhaps others; or the class description can be complete, indicating that the elements of the class are precisely characterized by the stated description. " <- DanC would like to see this go.

18:06:13 <DanC> ACTION Ian: investigate the implications of striking "Class descriptions..." text from the document./

18:07:31 * jhendler points out that removing a sentence is not the same as asserting the negation of that sentence

18:09:24 <jhendler> Ian - seems to me removing "red haired people" is a bad idea

18:38:07 * DanC chacls log to at least member-readable at this point...

18:41:04 <DanC> jimh, I offered to scribe this session

18:41:06 * jhendler thanks Dan

18:42:07 <DanC> meeting resumes...

18:42:31 <DanC> chair notes we're a bit behind, as we didn't achive the objective of deciding on publication

18:43:16 <DanC> === Naming

18:43:45 <DanC> PROPOSED: "OWL Lite" for the subset, "OWL" for the full language

18:44:16 <DanC> RESOLVED, connolly abstaining

18:45:00 <DanC> ---

18:45:01 <DanC> ISSUE: Syntax

18:45:02 <DanC> From: Raphael Volz (volz@aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de)

18:45:02 <DanC> Date: Sun, Jun 30 2002

18:45:05 <DanC>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/0219.html

18:45:11 <DanC>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Ju

18:45:15 <DanC>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jun/att-0219/01-syntax-issues.html

18:48:57 <DanC> enumerating the terms as in syntax-issues.html ...

18:49:12 <DanC> Mike: do we have norms for capitalization?

18:49:45 <DanC> Guus: InitialCaps for classes, lowerInitial for properties. camelCase in general. No, no convention for individuals.

18:50:02 <DanC> DeborahMc: we could use a norm for individuals

18:52:02 <DanC> RESOLVED: owl:Ontology is an agreed term, as used in OWL 1.0 Reference D., Formal Spec

18:52:55 <DanC> ... ok that feature synopsis doesn't have it, since feature synopsis needn't be exhaustive, esp. w.r.t. non-logical

18:53:11 <DanC> RESOLVED: owl:versionInfo likewise.

18:55:17 <DanC> PROPOSED: owl:imports

18:56:18 <DanC> connolly, hayes, Horrocks abstaining. Dean opposed.

18:56:22 <DanC> RESOLVED.

18:58:39 <DanC> DebM: at present, I don't have owl: in front of any names.

18:58:55 <DanC> MikeS: I got a little confused about which names are RDFS names

18:59:09 <DanC> ACTION Deb: clarify that owl: is the default, note when names come from RDFS.

19:00:13 <DanC> DebM: at present, feature synopsis uses lower case to start bullet items...

19:01:13 <DanC> MikeD: let's use initial caps for classes, etc.

19:01:58 <DanC> ACTION DebM: in 2.2, 2.2, 3.1, 3.2 use a distinctive font for terms in the language and conventional capitalization

19:02:44 <DanC> IanH: re "class"... is that rdfs:Class, or the general class constructor

19:04:15 <DeborahMc> greater clarification - for example, use of class in 3.1 first bullet - the first use

19:04:28 <DeborahMc> of class will have the special font and the agreed upon capitalization

19:04:40 <DeborahMc> and the second us of class will not have the special font

19:59:52 <jhendler> LUNCH

20:58:55 * DanC is taking notes in Emacs

21:10:36 <DanC> JimH: they're in 2.x of the feature synopsis

21:10:36 <DanC> owl:cardinality

21:11:01 <DanC> [scribe is switching back from emacs...]

21:11:31 <DanC> jimH: propose to normalize all 3 docs to owl:cardinality, minCardinality, maxCardinality

21:11:33 <DanC> 2nded

21:11:40 <DanC> so RESOLVED.

21:12:21 <DanC> jimh: now onto the idioms for specialized (atMostOne etc.)... I prefer to have explicit vocabulary for these.

21:13:46 <DanC> IanH: that could be said for lots of idioms...

21:27:07 <DanC> DanC [or was it Deb?]: PROPOSED: hasExactlyOne, as in BaseballTeam hasExactlyOne pitcher. likewise for hasAtMostOne/hasAtLeastOne

21:28:13 <DanC> IanH: do we really want to add this sort of new, redundant terminology?

21:28:37 <DanC> MikeS: indeed, let's stick to owl:cardinality, restricted to 1 or owl-lite

21:32:12 <DanC> straw poll: 8 to 5ish

21:32:53 <DanC> 3ish would objectr

21:33:08 <DanC> 3ish would object to cardinality "1"

21:37:10 <DanC> RESOLVED: to go with owl:cardinality/min/max, restricted to "1", dissenting: Evan. abstaining JimH abstained, Deb, Jos, Connolly.

21:37:32 <DanC> ACTION DebM to update feature synopsis, restricted cardinality section

21:38:36 <DanC> the 'restricted to "1"' decision here is for owl lite

21:39:49 <DanC> ACTION MikeD: note owl-lite restrictions on cardinality in reference doc

21:41:44 <DanC> RESOLVED: owl:intersectionOf. ACTION Ian update formal spec.

21:42:58 <DanC> ObjectProperty...

21:44:06 <DanC> [discussion of whether a change is merited...]

21:44:31 <DanC> ACTION DebM: note ObjectProperty, DatatypeProperty in the note about "datatypes TBD"

21:45:08 <DanC> ^so that folks searching for them will find them in the feature synposis somewhere.

21:46:01 <DanC> ACTION Ian: get IndividualProperty changed in formalization

21:46:25 <DanC> samePropertyAs... covered by formalism mapping decision above.

21:47:04 <DanC> -- owl:UniqueProperty

21:47:15 <DanC> note http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#I3.4-UnambiguousProperty still open

21:47:38 <DanC> ACTION DebM: update feature synopsis functional->Unique (noting 3.4)

21:48:48 <DanC> ... and isTheOnlyValueFor to owl:UnambiguousProperty.

21:49:08 <DanC> (note the spelling of owl:UnambiguousProperty.)

21:49:40 <DanC> -- Individual Instance...

21:49:55 <DanC> JimH: I really don't like Instance

21:50:36 <DanC> Guus recuses himself on this issue

21:50:58 <DanC> Guus: in my experience, "instance" is always relative to some class. (cf Brackman 1985)

21:51:24 <DanC> ... i.e. "instance" means class membership; it's a relationthips

21:51:29 <DanC> relationship

21:52:59 <DanC> JimH: after reviewing the reference/exchange document, I withdraw my objection

21:53:27 <DanC> seems to be an editorial matter. never mind.

21:54:19 <DanC> differentIndividualFrom ... covered by formal mapping decision above

21:54:37 <DanC> ACTION MikeD: "sameIndividual in text" fix typo.

21:54:55 <DanC> RESOLVED to thank Raphael for the detail work.

21:56:11 <DanC> -----------

21:57:36 <DanC> Ian summarizes

21:57:37 * Re: Feature Synopsis for OWL Lite and OWL Ian Horrocks (Mon, Jul 01 2002)

21:57:44 <DanC>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jul/0000.html

21:58:51 <DanC> Ian: document motivates owl-lite, but doesn't motivate this document itself.

21:59:31 <DanC> JimH: it would suffice, to me, to cite requirements/charter

21:59:43 <DanC> DebM: I could add a short bit along those lines.

22:00:57 <DanC> Guus: about Thing/Nothing...

22:01:14 <DanC> DebM/Ian: we think Thing merits explanation, but not Nothing.

22:02:35 <DanC> ACTION: add Thing to owl-lite description. add Nothing to owl (full) description.

22:02:36 * RRSAgent records action 1

22:04:36 <DanC> [JimH recalls how we worked on the requirements... conversation between WG member reviewers and editors; discussions that don't resolve between the two are raised to the whole group's agenda]

22:05:31 <DanC> DebM: yes, we prefer suggested text. it's reasonable if you can't.

22:06:25 <DanC> Guus[chair]: summarizing the discussion this morning:

22:06:36 <DanC> (1) add a Disjoint feature to owl-lite?

22:07:00 <DanC> straw poll: none in favor.

22:07:27 <DanC> one in favor.

22:07:37 <DanC> three against.

22:08:11 <DanC> RESOLVED: to leave disjoint out of owl-lite.

22:08:37 <DanC> (2) "complete" class descriptions, and can sameClassAs take class expressions or just names?

22:12:35 <DanC> ... recall Ian's actin to study the issue earlier...

22:14:18 <DanC> DanC: Deb, has the feadback you've gotten so far given you pause about releasing?

22:14:50 <DanC> DebM: I have been able to integrate much of the feedback already. No, I'm reasonably content to release with the "complete" issue outstanding.

22:15:13 <DanC> Guus: schedule estimate?

22:15:21 <DanC> DebM: I'm offline 6-13July

22:15:43 <DanC> DebM: I could put something out 6Jul, and hand off to Frank at that point.

22:17:14 <DanC> suggested schedule: draft 6Jul, discussion 11Jul, release 18Jul. [confirm pls?]

22:20:02 <DanC> PROPOSED: release feature synposis document as a W3C WD, with editorial input thru telcon of 18Jul. (contingent on availability of reference document)

22:20:36 <DanC> so RESOLVED.

22:22:06 <DanC> JimH encourages folks to get their input in by 11Jul.

22:53:05 <GuusS> Agenda item: OWL Reference document

22:53:18 <GuusS> Comments from Evan

22:54:51 <GuusS> 1. Different syntactic forms

22:55:21 <GuusS> 2. relation between class elements & class expressions

23:02:18 <GuusS> it is difficult to grasp the distinction from the document

23:06:57 <GuusS> Evan: class elements are constructors; expressions are axioms?!

23:07:01 <GuusS> Ian: yes

23:07:16 <DanC> well, sort of; not in any exact technical sense

23:12:19 <GuusS> Eva: the document contains a lot of duplication

23:24:15 <DeborahMc> i think the proposal touches the following 5 things:

23:24:18 <DeborahMc> Rdf:Property

23:24:19 <DeborahMc> Rdfs:subClassOf

23:24:19 <DeborahMc> Rdfs:subPropertyOf

23:24:19 <DeborahMc> Rdfs:domain

23:24:19 <DeborahMc> Rdfs:range

23:48:36 <GuusS> ACTION: Mike Dean to include explanation of class elements and expressions

23:48:36 <GuusS> STRAW POLL

23:48:36 <GuusS> rdfs:subclassof only: prefer 5 can live with 9

23:48:36 <GuusS> rdfs:class + owl:subclassof: prefer N-3; can live with: N-3

23:48:36 <GuusS> For the moment we will go with the owl:subclassof format, as this was

23:48:36 <GuusS> the DAML+OIL way.

23:48:38 <GuusS> ACTION: DanC to raise an issue wrt rdfs:subclassof and owl:subclassoff

23:48:38 * RRSAgent records action 2

23:48:39 * RRSAgent records action 3

23:49:22 <GuusS> ACTION: editor to propose changed title, if deemed necessary

23:49:24 * RRSAgent records action 4

23:51:27 <DanC> PROPOSED: to use for the namespace name: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#

23:51:47 <DanC> so RESOLVED.

23:52:00 <GuusS> ACTION: Dean & Connoly to propose name space

23:52:02 * RRSAgent records action 5

23:52:28 <DanC> (actually, my action is to get the above OK'd by the W3C webmaster/director; mike's is to update the reference document)

23:59:13 <GuusS> Deadline for both docum ents (Feature synopsis and Refrenbce) on July 18

23:59:32 <jhendler> Deadline for raising new issues is July 15.