WWW2003 Conference IRC Chat Logs for 2003-05-23
WWW2003 Conference IRC Chat Logs for 2003-05-23 |
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This web site provides the chat logs for the WWW2003 Community Hub for attendee-generated notes and coverage of the Twelfth International World Wide Web Conference.
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07:03:51 <nmg_> nmg_ is now known as nmg
07:04:11 * danbri waves, catches up on yesterday logs
07:04:41 <danbri> re http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/www2003/2003-05-22.html#T15-08-21 'we don't do design by committee', yeah it was a slip, intention was 'we don't like to do design by committee'...
07:06:22 <danbri> anybody wanna scribe?
07:06:31 * danbri lazy
07:08:03 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: WWW2003, logged and blogged at http://www2003.xmlhack.com/ - Budapest, Hungary - May 20-24 - Third day of main conference
07:08:25 <dajobe>http://www2003.org/schedule.htm#23
07:08:26 <dc_www2003> A: http://www2003.org/schedule.htm#23 from dajobe
07:08:44 <dajobe> A:|WWW2003 Schedule Friday 23 May
07:08:45 <dc_www2003> Titled item A.
07:10:44 <shab> playing excerpts taken from a video of 1990 Horizon programme 'Hyperland'
07:12:22 <dajobe> "Wendy makes a link"
07:12:32 <dajobe> - professor Wendy Hall, University of Southampton
07:12:45 * dajobe not scribing here, others feel free ;)
07:13:10 <nmg>http://www.douglasadams.com/creations/hype.html
07:13:11 <dc_www2003> B: http://www.douglasadams.com/creations/hype.html from nmg
07:13:30 <nmg> B:| Further information about the BBC Hyperland documentary
07:13:31 <dc_www2003> Titled item B.
07:15:03 <dajobe> mountbatten archive at U. Southampton
07:15:11 <dajobe> want to make links
07:15:14 <shab> played video of making a hyper link on a video disc for bbc computer
07:16:18 <nmg>http://www.archives.lib.soton.ac.uk/mountbatten.shtml
07:16:18 <dc_www2003> C: http://www.archives.lib.soton.ac.uk/mountbatten.shtml from nmg
07:16:33 <nmg> C:| Further information about the Mountbatten archive
07:16:33 <dc_www2003> Titled item C.
07:16:39 <DanC> B:Douglas Adams and Tom Baker appeared in the video clip Wendy Hall showed Friday morning
07:16:40 <dc_www2003> Added comment B1.
07:17:20 * danbri named his laptop dna after D.N.Adams <- random aside
07:17:27 <nmg> B:Ted Nelson also appears
07:17:27 <dc_www2003> Added comment B2.
07:17:47 <shab> microcosm - allowing annotations of historical docs, so that students can see the debates...
07:18:01 <DanC> ted nelson appears in the clip? or in the whole movie?
07:18:20 <nmg> the whole movie - about 15 minutes of him discussing Xanadu
07:18:43 <DanC>http://www2003.org/speakers.htm#Hall
07:18:43 <dc_www2003> D: http://www2003.org/speakers.htm#Hall from DanC
07:18:55 <DanC> D:|Missing Links; speaker: Wendy Hall
07:18:55 <dc_www2003> Titled item D.
07:19:02 <shab> microcosm history at http://www.mmrg.ecs.soton.ac.uk/projects/microcosm.html
07:19:23 <nmg>http://www.mmrg.ecs.soton.ac.uk/publications/Project-Microcosm.html
07:19:23 <dc_www2003> E: http://www.mmrg.ecs.soton.ac.uk/publications/Project-Microcosm.html from nmg
07:19:41 <nmg> E:| Microcosm-related publications
07:19:42 <dc_www2003> Titled item E.
07:20:26 <DanC> D:presented [http://www2003.org/schedule.htm#23|friday morning at WWW2003]
07:20:26 <dc_www2003> Added comment D1.
07:21:45 <DanC> D:mentions ECHT '90, about which timbl made some [http://www.w3.org/Conferences/ECHT90/Programme.html|notes]
07:21:45 <dc_www2003> Added comment D2.
07:22:11 <DanC> D:aha... Wendy met TimBL at ECHT '90
07:22:11 <dc_www2003> Added comment D3.
07:22:18 <shab> talked about issues from making microsm e.g. need for context when linking, which 'patel' or other person are you talking about from a link... still open issues...
07:23:01 * DanC was there in San Antonio for ACM '91
07:23:13 <DanC> that's where I met TimBL and Engelbart
07:24:43 * bijan wonders if these are the right lessons to learn
07:24:54 <shab> lessons - big is beautiful (network), scruffy worksf (let the links fail), but - lost (for a time) conceptual linking, search engines fill the gap
07:25:12 <bijan> Does scruffy work? Or more to the point, will scruffy work *again*?
07:25:35 <nmg> from a HT point of view they are - link integrity was (and is) a big obstacle to distribution
07:25:37 <DanC> the "err?" link sounds like the "oh yeah?" button.
07:25:43 <DanC> cf Timbl at Boston '95
07:26:40 <shab> company... derived from that work http://www.activenavigation.com/
07:26:57 <nmg> with their product "portal maximiser"
07:27:02 <DanC>http://www.w3.org/Talks/WWW94Tim/
07:27:03 <dc_www2003> F: http://www.w3.org/Talks/WWW94Tim/ from DanC
07:27:22 <DanC> F:|W3 Future Directions
07:27:22 <dc_www2003> Titled item F.
07:27:37 <DanC> F:timbl's talk at the 1st WWW conference in '94
07:27:37 <dc_www2003> Added comment F1.
07:27:53 <DanC> F:including a slide "The Need for Semantics in the Web"
07:27:55 <dc_www2003> Added comment F2.
07:27:57 <nmg>http://journals.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ht97/
07:27:58 <dc_www2003> G: http://journals.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ht97/ from nmg
07:28:06 <nmg> G:| Hypertext 97
07:28:06 <dc_www2003> Titled item G.
07:28:22 <DanC> is this the "2 cheers for the web"?
07:28:27 <nmg> gcc-O3: held at the same time as WWW6, with keynote by Ted Nelson
07:28:44 <shab> showed cross atlantic presentation by Ted Nelson
07:28:49 <DanC> try G:held... without the space
07:28:58 * nmg think this is either "my past is your future" or "finding out about the web is like finding you have a delinquent child you've never met"
07:29:08 <shab> ...talking about tbl
07:30:36 <nmg_> nmg_ is now known as nmg
07:30:51 <nmg> prescient, moi?
07:30:52 <DanC> I think hakon took that photo
07:31:03 <shab> correction... last video not trans atlatic, now showing end of that ... Ted ended with 'my past is your future'
07:31:28 <DanC> (of nelson/berners-lee/calliou)
07:31:29 <danbri> not much mention of the Internet yet... were the hypermedia crowd using it much in 80s?
07:31:35 * danbri likes that pic
07:31:36 <nmg> gcc-O3: held at the same time as WWW6, with keynote by Ted Nelson
07:31:46 <nmg> grr. my client is broken
07:32:20 <nmg> G: held at the same time as WWW6, with keynote by Ted Nelson
07:32:20 <dc_www2003> Added comment G1.
07:32:24 <nmg> at last
07:32:41 <DanC> ooh... augmented reality... that was cool.
07:33:00 <edd> heh, and they said rdf was pixie dust :-)
07:33:07 <dajobe> lol
07:33:08 <sandro> that was soooo cool. :)
07:33:27 <danbri> yup, that was v nice
07:34:42 <nmg>http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~pass99r/research/mywork/index.html
07:34:42 * bijan found the augmented reality rather tiresome looking, to use. /me logs this moment for his future www plenary talk
07:34:42 <dc_www2003> H: http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~pass99r/research/mywork/index.html from nmg
07:35:02 <nmg> H:| Augmented Reality Hypertext from Patrick Sinclair of IAM at Southampton
07:35:03 <dc_www2003> Titled item H.
07:35:32 <danbri> plenty of scruffies in ai though... (we just don't talk to them enough)
07:35:40 <bijan> logger_www2003, bookmark
07:35:40 <bijan> See http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/www2003/2003-05-23#T07-35-40
07:35:49 <DanC> scruffies in ai... e.g. hendler
07:35:51 <bijan> Er...
07:36:10 <shab> talking about links between commmunities - did anyone keep track of which they were?
07:36:10 <danbri> yeah, and the whole neural net / ga crowd
07:36:40 * bijan finds these two slides totally uncompelling
07:36:42 * nmg will try and make sure that Wendy's slides get put online
07:37:05 <bijan> "Look, concat to dbm files together. The data merges just like BLARGH."
07:37:24 <nmg>http://www.aktors.org/
07:37:24 <dc_www2003> I: http://www.aktors.org/ from nmg
07:37:35 <nmg> I: AKT - Advanced Knowledge Technologies
07:37:35 <dc_www2003> Added comment I1.
07:37:45 <shab> communities - web, adaptive tech, agents + ? also scruffs meets neats?
07:37:56 <nmg>http://triplestore.aktors.org/~swh/xAktiveSpace-wd/
07:37:57 <dc_www2003> J: http://triplestore.aktors.org/~swh/xAktiveSpace-wd/ from nmg
07:37:58 <danbri> nmg, what's AKT doing on the trust front? anything on reasoning with provenance tracked...?
07:38:10 <nmg> J:| CS AKTiveSpace live demo
07:38:10 <dc_www2003> Titled item J.
07:38:21 <nmg> J: works in Mozilla, be gentle with it... :)
07:38:21 <dc_www2003> Added comment J1.
07:38:41 <nmg> danbri: as yet, nothing on trust that I'm aware of
07:39:08 <danbri> oh right... the last slide suggested you were, as that's the blob on top of the sw layer cake
07:39:20 * danbri likes this demo
07:39:32 <nmg> it's on our radar - we've just not got round to it yet.
07:39:36 <nmg> give us time ;)
07:39:48 <danbri> wasn't complaining :)
07:39:51 * danbri looks fwd to it
07:39:53 <nmg> it is indeed a nifty demo - thank Steve Harris (swh) for it
07:40:16 <DanC> anybody played with ZigZag?
07:40:17 <danbri> oh, i want url for that photo for codepiction
07:40:29 <nmg> oh yes - I'll get you Wendy and the Queen as well
07:40:37 <nmg> gzigzag, yes
07:40:40 <maxf> :-)
07:40:41 <shab> paper about the aktive space demo - http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00007440/
07:40:42 <danbri> cool
07:41:13 <nmg> I forgot about that paper - submitted to ISWC this year
07:41:53 <danbri> 'about people'++
07:42:00 <nmg> J: paper submitted to ISWC at http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00007440/
07:42:01 <dc_www2003> Added comment J2.
07:42:02 * maxf realises that would make 5 codepiction links from him to Prince Charles
07:42:12 * DanC wonders if Wendy has seen foafnaut
07:42:31 <nmg> not yet - Nigel knows about it, but I've not had a chance to wave it at wh yet
07:43:29 <danbri> lifelog / tia / darpa... ? or is that a different lifelog?
07:43:30 <edd> personas ... i want everyone to have their own foafbots.
07:43:33 <shab> will have an 'internet persona'
07:43:41 <DanC> same lifelog
07:44:01 <danbri> cf http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58909,00.html 'a spy machine of darpas dreams'
07:44:24 <DanC> lifelog... hmm... 'elephant never forgets' vs. forgive-and-forget... credit histories only go back 7 years; that's a feature.
07:44:49 <shab> back to vannevar bush - that she started with a quote from 'as we may think'
07:45:19 <DanC> what happened to the agents? well, we have dc_www2003 here.
07:45:42 <danbri> re 'have an internet persona', i've been wondering re foaf whether to have an explicit representation of multiple personas, versus just use foaf:Person and not mention sameIndividualAs relations between roles/personas described as if were distinct people
07:45:47 <nmg>http://www.iam.ecs.soton.ac.uk/themes/abc/
07:45:47 <dc_www2003> K: http://www.iam.ecs.soton.ac.uk/themes/abc/ from nmg
07:46:04 <nmg> K:| Agent research at IAM at the University fo Southampton
07:46:04 <dc_www2003> Titled item K.
07:46:07 <danbri> maybe agents became 'web services'?
07:46:14 <danbri> (minus the ui)
07:46:24 <shab> red dwarf video clip... not working
07:46:29 <nmg> heh. see my paper this afternoon.
07:46:43 <nmg> there's more to agents than web services provide
07:46:49 <DanC> re multiple personas... see earlier discussion of cyc:subAbstrac ... I have an action to elaborate in www-rdf-logic
07:46:58 <DanC> er... www-rdf-calendar, rather
07:47:16 * danbri bookmarks the thought
07:48:12 <dajobe> -- end of plenary talk from Wendy
07:49:09 <dajobe> Stuart Feldman
07:49:40 <dajobe> The Web Touches Everything - Now it Neds to be Serious
07:49:40 <dajobe> IBM Internet Technology
07:49:40 <dajobe> "the inventer of make(1)"
07:49:40 <dajobe> intenvor
07:49:40 <dajobe> argh
07:49:58 <libby_> libby_ is now known as libby
07:50:42 <shab> thanks to kieren - the red dwarf episod was Episode 5 - Queeg
07:51:07 <shab> ... series 1
07:51:46 * DanC enjoys Hayes and Altheim covering the whole syntax/semantics ground all over again in SCL...
07:52:37 * Jhendler catches up ....
07:53:06 <Jhendler> is amazingly impressed at the Semantic Web of the eople in the audience -- during the talk you all managed to link
07:53:10 <DanC>http://philebus.tamu.edu/pipermail/scl/2003-May/000182.html
07:53:10 <dc_www2003> L: http://philebus.tamu.edu/pipermail/scl/2003-May/000182.html from DanC
07:53:16 <Jhendler> in the slides and clips she couldn't find -- wow!
07:53:37 <DanC> L:|[SCL] Approach to a concrete syntax
07:53:37 <dc_www2003> Titled item L.
07:54:08 <DanC> L:in which Altheim and Hayes go over XML markup and semantics
07:54:08 <dc_www2003> Added comment L1.
07:54:28 <DanC> L:one message in a large thread, actually.
07:54:28 <dc_www2003> Added comment L2.
07:55:03 <Jhendler> danbri wrote "plenty of scruffies in ai though... (we just don't talk to them enough"
07:55:16 <nmg> Jhendler: that's the power of google (and a small amount of local knowledge on my part)
07:55:25 * sandro find the "uncompelling" attack deeply divisive and unhelpful.
07:55:29 <sandro> wh: "Which ontology am I in?"
07:55:33 <sandro> wh: Ted Nelson's ZigZag idea
07:55:33 <Jhendler> causing me to laugh -- I was one of the people at the meeting where neat vs. scruffy was designed
07:55:37 <sandro> wh shows pictures of herself in different contexts
07:55:49 <sandro> Man on the Moon challenge: Lifelog / Memories for Life : You could store all your life's experiences digitally.
07:55:56 <sandro> neuroscience: what do you want tro forget??
07:56:00 * sandro wonders if V. Bush and G. Bush are related
07:56:04 <sandro> wh: What happened to Agents
07:56:06 <sandro> [ red dwarf clip ]
07:56:08 <nmg> how do you knopw which ones are the interesting memories?
07:56:20 * sandro and ericP wonder who Dave Beckham is.
07:56:22 <Jhendler> and I was one of the scruffies -- always have been
07:56:24 <sandro> (google isnt working for me)
07:56:33 <Jhendler> the irony is I brought all the neats to sem web -- *sigh*
07:56:35 <chrisn> for constraints in xml check out the validation talk in the industrial track later.. :)
07:56:39 <nmg> manchester united footballer and captain of the england football (soccer) team
07:56:48 <edd> "broadband access is a given in europe and usa" (not quite yet)
07:56:57 <DanC> he said for businesses, no, edd?
07:57:06 <danbri> jim, yeah thats what i meant... in terms of tech and conference papers etc., sw has attracted all the neatists
07:57:25 * bijan answers the question "do you know anyone who's voluntarialy given up broadband (at home)". Yes, in fact. I have
07:57:28 <bijan> About two years ago
07:57:33 <Jhendler> danbri - no, it's that they publish each others papers - the "implementors" are winning
07:57:33 <bijan> i gave up dsl
07:57:36 <edd> DanC: depends what size business you're talking. we're getting there in the UK, but not there yet. and Europe's a big and varied place.
07:57:44 <DanC> ah.
07:58:20 * edd just sniffs for US and Western Europe bias in assertions.
07:58:35 <edd> Also: I actually spend more of my timem voluntarily on a narrow connection
07:58:42 <edd> In effect, I gave up broadband
07:58:46 <edd> In order to use internet on my cellphone
07:59:07 <edd> I also gave up a big screen and keyboard, in order to carry it with me
07:59:58 <danbri> you use your p800 as a desktop at home? :)
08:00:24 <edd> oh you don't want to know :-) (IRC from bed)
08:00:47 * zool blinks
08:00:51 <DanC> "I know nothing about price; I can tell you about cost. these are only barely related concepts, especially in the communications market" -- IBM guy
08:00:52 <edd> morning zool
08:00:56 * danbri pretends not to hear
08:00:58 <zool> hi hi edd
08:01:54 * edd noodles on foaf, discovery, ubiquitous networking: zeroconf, ipv6, bluetooth
08:02:32 * danbri runs: java -jar FoafFinger-20030521.jar "Dan Brickley" danbri@w3.org
08:02:43 <zool> seen a lot of rendevous recently edd
08:02:45 <Jhendler> I remember in my first college CS course that Alan Perlis (Turing winner) proved to the class that a million instructions per second was impossible
08:02:50 <zool> zeroconf social networking hehe
08:02:54 <Jhendler> using speed of light as the argument
08:03:36 <danbri> foaffinger: http://rdfweb.org/people/damian/foaffinger/
08:03:42 <Jhendler> argument was that the processor would have to be less than 2 inches in diameter - whcih would generate so much heat, we would have to suspend it in liq. nitrogen
08:04:17 * edd prices a t221 $8,781.00
08:04:23 <Jhendler> Grace Hooper also used to caryy a piece of wire 1 foot long and say "this is a megaflop" because it was how far light could go in the time of 1 insruction
08:04:54 <Jhendler> amazing how so many smart people were so wrong at predicting the future
08:05:32 <bijan> No, what's amazing is that, given their direct experience and anecdotal evidence, that they still *do it*>
08:06:03 <Jhendler> someone once said something about it being safer to predict the past than to predict the future...
08:06:08 <Jhendler> but the latter is more fun
08:06:12 <AndyS> UK to California is ~50ms at speed of light. Would you undergo remote surgery on these terms? :-)
08:06:22 * bijan struggles with prediciting the present
08:06:28 <bijan> "That moment's over"
08:06:30 <bijan> "That one too"
08:06:37 <bijan> "I be the next one will be over soon."
08:06:40 <bijan> bet
08:06:48 <Jhendler> I predict the Bijan will type "that one too" (oops too late)
08:07:01 <Jhendler> s/the/that
08:08:55 <edd> semantic web a dead end on this diag
08:08:58 <edd> seems to be very grid oriented\
08:09:01 <danbri> yup, just noticing that
08:09:22 <AndyS> This is great news for computer scientists but can the 3rd world keep/catch up?
08:09:38 <danbri> "but also the rdf branch gets us into adding semantics to the web. as tim describes, there is computing side and the data side."
08:09:52 <zool> is the 'grid' a specific, possibly different thing?
08:09:52 <Jhendler> he doesn't yet know tha SW and grid are growing together (at the OGSA level)
08:10:07 <danbri> jim, got an url?
08:10:43 <Jhendler> danbri - yes
08:10:51 <AndyS> Could have the data/info dual of this graph
08:10:51 <Jhendler> ohh, sorry - will chump some.
08:11:32 <Jhendler>http://www.isi.edu/~stefan/SemPGRID/
08:11:32 <dc_www2003> M: http://www.isi.edu/~stefan/SemPGRID/ from Jhendler
08:11:43 <AndyS> Then arcs are services, blobs are data
08:11:54 <Jhendler> M:| Semantics in peer to peer and grid computing
08:11:55 <dc_www2003> Titled item M.
08:12:14 <Jhendler> M: workshop at WWW2003, grid/SW convergenece
08:12:14 <dc_www2003> Added comment M1.
08:12:23 * AndyS forecasts this talk will end on time
08:12:53 <sandro> SF: Never trust a technologist
08:12:53 <dc_www2003> Label SF not found.
08:12:56 <Jhendler>http://www.semanticgrid.org/
08:12:56 <dc_www2003> N: http://www.semanticgrid.org/ from Jhendler
08:12:57 <sandro> ...: Never trust an owner
08:13:11 <Jhendler> N:| The semantic Grid Website
08:13:11 <dc_www2003> Titled item N.
08:13:18 <sandro> SGF:Nver bet against the exponential
08:13:18 <dc_www2003> Label SGF not found.
08:13:23 <Jhendler> N: Semantic Grid community portal
08:13:23 <dc_www2003> Added comment N1.
08:13:32 <sandro> SF:But dont confused a sigmoid with and exponential
08:13:32 <dc_www2003> Label SF not found.
08:14:21 <danbri> jim, thanks for the link
08:14:28 <sandro> feldman: When software is serious, it takes months to change, maybe years.
08:14:32 <Jhendler>http://www.semanticgrid.org/presentations/swfat2003/swfat2003.html
08:14:33 <dc_www2003> O: http://www.semanticgrid.org/presentations/swfat2003/swfat2003.html from Jhendler
08:14:49 <Jhendler> O:| Carole Goble's Semantic Grid Presentation
08:14:49 <dc_www2003> Titled item O.
08:14:51 <dajobe> (I find his white on black slides with small type, unreadaqble from near the back)
08:15:01 <sandro> ...: social changes: decates (generation time scale). 17 years for tech transfer.
08:15:10 <dajobe> (has any W3C person done accessibility of slide design?)
08:15:35 <chrisn> somebody could hack accessibility checks into slide mode in tidy
08:15:56 <edd> IP address per bullet
08:16:00 <Jhendler> O: presented at International Workshop on Semantic Web Foundations and Application Technologies
08:16:00 <dc_www2003> Added comment O1.
08:16:12 <chrisn> as for SCL...
08:16:15 <chrisn>http://www.systemwire.com/xlinkit/Downloads/xlinkit-5.3/doc/reference/reference.html#sec.language
08:16:15 <dc_www2003> P: http://www.systemwire.com/xlinkit/Downloads/xlinkit-5.3/doc/reference/reference.html#sec.language from chrisn
08:16:18 <Jhendler> O: March 2003
08:16:18 <dc_www2003> Added comment O2.
08:16:49 * DanC finds it hard to sleep at night with TCPA coming... I don't have any argument against his prediction that it will come, though.
08:16:54 <Jhendler> danbri - that should hold you for now. My keynote on this stuff from the workshop isn't on line yet, will be soon as I get more reliable connectivity
08:17:18 <Jhendler> some interesting things that Grid folks are thinking about that we aren't
08:17:23 <Jhendler> and more importantly, vice versa
08:21:44 <DanC> enforcement: when folks break the law, take away their broadband. 1/2 ;-)
08:23:33 <Jhendler> where is Sean Palmer when we need him ? Simpsons and running the Internet in the same sentence !
08:24:23 <DanC> now that's an interesting take-home... folks running DNS are doing it for fun; eventually, this must be grounded in economic motivations so that the homer simpsons who will eventually be running it can be relied on
08:24:33 * danbri hasn't seen sean in ages, ponders a trip to brighton
08:25:02 <DanC> (doing it *well* for fun)
08:25:41 <Jhendler> Sean was supposed to be taking a course from me (remotely) this term - disappeared about half way through
08:25:44 <DanC> ok... this "Robust" slide is actually illegible; earlier slides required an upleasant amount of concentration to read, but this one I simply cannot make out the words.
08:26:06 <Jhendler> his email started bouncing as well
08:27:37 <libby> he popped up recently in irc
08:27:40 <nmg> well, he seems to be on #foaf at the moment
08:27:52 * zool waves at nmg
08:27:54 <Jhendler> tell him I said "hello" :->
08:28:20 * nmg thinks he may be idling - haven't seen him speak in several days
08:30:08 <Jhendler> I think it says semantic web in there - I'm not at front of the room, so I cannot read it clearly
08:30:38 <dom> it does say it
08:30:52 <Jhendler> interesting sea change -- last year we were told IBM was not speaking semantic web, this year we get Sematag and this
08:31:01 <Jhendler> woohoo, we're winning ...
08:31:07 <danbri> "openness... protocols, interfaces, ..."
08:31:11 <nmg> sematag?
08:31:15 * danbri doesn't see 'semantic web' on screen
08:31:31 <dom> (it was on a previous slide)
08:31:33 <danbri> 'babel of DTDs; semantic incompatibilities'
08:31:36 <shab> was on last sides under a heading of searching or somethign
08:31:43 * edd likes babel
08:31:52 * danbri liked brian's babel slide
08:32:18 * edd too.
08:32:19 <nmg> yes - I was wondering if anyone has a URI for it
08:32:46 <DanC> why do folks expect that "80% of everything is drek" won't apply to every new technology? (java, DTDs, ontologies, desktop publishing, ...)
08:33:01 <bijan> Only 80%?
08:33:04 <nmg> wishful thinking? group hallucination?
08:33:11 <bijan> I thought that two about bens' talk
08:33:19 <nmg> overly aggressive marketing and PR?
08:33:23 <bijan> "Wow, HALF THE TIME WITH OCMPUTERS IS WASTED AND FRUSTRATING"
08:33:27 <chrisn> did somebody bet the talk would end on time?
08:33:31 <bijan> Er..as compared to what? Cooking?
08:33:35 <Jhendler> nmg - on the W3C track page -- my connection is flaking again
08:33:36 <DanC> ok, I'm an optimist at 80%. Rohit's number is 97%.
08:33:38 <bijan> *DRiving*?
08:33:43 <nmg> thanks, jhendler
08:33:49 <bijan> Talking with people?
08:33:55 <Jhendler> CLarke's law is 95% of everything is sh*t
08:34:03 <danbri> babel, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=babel+tower+Brueghel (lots of post sale shops)
08:34:08 <bijan> That's sturgeon's law :)
08:34:14 <bijan> I believe
08:34:40 <bijan> Clarke's law: Any sufficiently advanced techonology is indistiguishable from my demo.
08:34:48 <nmg> bijan's right
08:35:45 <Jhendler> Sturgeon yes, Clarke lol
08:35:58 <bijan> :)
08:36:25 * Jhendler is impressed that IBM has a guy who "talks the talk" at the top -- knows his stuff, but clearly a web geek at heart
08:36:47 <darobin> xml-dev at its best: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200305/msg00651.html
08:37:02 <DanC> folks cite the percentage of URLs that go bad... who cares? that can be 95%, for all I care. The statistic I care about is how many URI *accesses* fail. that's only 6%. i.e. as long as the popular URIs stay cool, life is mostly good.
08:37:12 <bijan> SERIOUS: Silly Enormous Risible Impotent Omnipotent Unlikely and Silly (again) :)
08:37:13 <dc_www2003> Label SERIOUS not found.
08:38:22 <DanC> ok, well, I care a lot that most URIs stay good. but I see way too many "the sky is falling! let's replace URIs with something that will work better!" claims backed by irrelevant URI stats
09:03:49 <shab> edu - Peter Dolog, Integrating Adaptive Hypermedia Techniques and Open RDF-Based Environments
09:05:36 <shab> edu - lots of stuff - LMS, AH and content providers, needs to be shared & adapted to the users, suggests p2p approach has advantages
09:06:43 <shab> edu - metadata is(canbe?) seens as constraints on use of learning objects (LO)
09:07:03 <shab> edu - can match between LO metadata and user profiles...
09:08:01 <shab> edu - not new... existing systems open adaptive hypermedia (bailey et al) & open corpus adaptive hypermedia (Henze, Hejdl)
09:08:16 <shab> edu - and systems e.g. AHA! et al
09:09:22 <shab> edu - open RDF-based env - dist content, standards based metadata... p2p use this metadata as basis for talkging to eachother
09:10:25 <shab> edu - have content adn relationships, adn learner + logic programs that cna query and adapt content and visualistation/navigation
09:11:23 <shab> edu - metadata standards - LOM and DC investigated. Learner discriptions IEEE adn IMS
09:12:31 <shab> edu - DC 15 elements, LOM broader more domain coverage use RDF bindings of LOM adn DC in their implimentation
09:14:49 <shab> edu - Topic ontologies for content classification, topics covered use dc:subject values from ACM CCS classifcation, using lom-cls taxonomy, topics can have different weights (follow up in book ontologies for e-learnign)
09:15:16 <shab> edu - shows rdf exampel of ACM CCS
09:16:20 <shab> edu - accessiblity constraints i.e which learner profile to consume a resource? represent constrints e.g. difficluty to determine
09:17:17 <shab> edu - other fields, requires (DC) as pre-requisites, LOM educational role...
09:18:18 <shab> edu - discribign users, basis of custiomisation, mostly focused on level of knowledge and topics (? missed end)
09:18:54 <shab> edu - IEEE PAPI adn IML LIP for user profiles see AH workshop paper
09:20:04 <shab> edu - performance using RDF bindigns of PAPI - shows graph of this for a given 'performance'
09:21:44 <shab> edu - Peer architecture, peer queries via Edutella p2p, using a Edutella Wrapper (Prolog/RDF) in the peeer whihc alos uses the Minerva Queris and inferenc rules displayed via Minerva Applet(?)
09:22:59 <shab> edu - querying Edutella p2p, datalog and RDF-Based QEL, common internal datamodel - using wrappers to supprot metadata storage types...
09:23:27 <shab> edu - query via a prolog query syntax... gives examples
09:23:49 <danbri> what room is 'edu'? /me wants to come listen
09:24:02 <kateS> brahms
09:24:10 <danbri> tx
09:24:23 <shab> edu - screen shot of interface, LHS query map adn RHS contnet(?)
09:25:12 <AndyS> Also: Edutella infrastructure talk at same time on SW track
09:25:14 <shab> edu - conclusions - done stuff, need further work... esp adaptatations...
09:25:59 <shab>http://www.elena-project.org/
09:26:00 <dc_www2003> Q: http://www.elena-project.org/ from shab
09:27:16 <shab> q:|from Peter Dolog talk in edu strand
09:27:28 <amy> amy is now known as amyvdh
09:27:42 <dajobe> Q:|from Peter Dolog talk in edu strand
09:27:42 <dc_www2003> Titled item Q.
09:29:55 <shab> Q:|from Peter Dolog presentation in edu strand
09:29:55 <dc_www2003> Titled item Q.
09:34:37 <shab> edu - new presentation by Alexandra Cristea (http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~alex/) LAOS: Layered WWW AHS Authoring Model and their
09:34:37 <shab> corresponding Algebraic Operators
09:37:30 <mattb> interesting linguistic-analysis in "Mining The Peanut Gallery", product review metadata extraction talk
09:37:59 <mattb> dm - negative reviews tend to use the past tense because of returned products, things you *didn't* buy
09:39:01 <mattb> dm - detecting negative reviews hard because of sarcasm "*this product is great* if you have no standards at all"
09:41:55 <mattb> dm - scoring based on document length, corpus regularity
09:52:36 <Frans> Frans is now known as Jimbo
09:56:07 <edd> dc_www2003: view 1
09:56:07 <dc_www2003> Q: from Peter Dolog presentation in edu strand (http://www.elena-project.org/)
09:56:28 <edd> P:|xlinkit constraint language
09:56:28 <dc_www2003> Titled item P.
09:57:44 * edd complements to dave raggett on easily readable slides
09:58:45 <edd>http://www.w3.org/Talks/2003/0523-VB-WWW2003/
09:58:45 <dc_www2003> R: http://www.w3.org/Talks/2003/0523-VB-WWW2003/ from edd
09:58:51 <edd> R:|VoiceXML and the Web
09:58:51 <dc_www2003> Titled item R.
09:58:56 <edd> R:by Dave Raggett
09:58:56 <dc_www2003> Added comment R1.
09:59:24 <edd> R:a good presentation
09:59:24 <dc_www2003> Added comment R2.
10:02:15 * edd sees maxf show picture of his phone
10:02:27 <edd> he's talking about the multimodal interaction stuff
10:03:13 <edd> heh, maxf titles his slides like perl modules "Intro::Scenarios"
10:03:35 <edd>http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/www2003-mmi/all.htm
10:03:36 <dc_www2003> S: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/www2003-mmi/all.htm from edd
10:03:45 <edd> S:|W3C Multimodal Interaction Activity
10:03:45 <dc_www2003> Titled item S.
10:03:54 <edd> S:by Max Froumentin
10:03:54 <dc_www2003> Added comment S1.
10:04:50 <mattb>http://svm.sdsc.edu/svm-overview.html
10:04:51 <dc_www2003> T: http://svm.sdsc.edu/svm-overview.html from mattb
10:04:59 <mattb> T:|Support Vector Machine algorithm
10:05:00 <dc_www2003> Titled item T.
10:05:06 <mattb> T:cited several times in data mining talks this morning
10:05:06 <dc_www2003> Added comment T1.
10:05:20 <mattb> T:*The algorithm addresses the general problem of learning to discriminate between positive and negative members of a given class of n-dimensional vectors*
10:05:21 <dc_www2003> Added comment T2.
10:12:08 <edd> S:some amazingly interesting work going on here, which I admit I don't pay a lot of attention to.
10:12:08 <dc_www2003> Added comment S2.
10:12:19 <edd> S:wonder how I can get a grip on this, find a good way for XML.com to start covering it?
10:12:20 <dc_www2003> Added comment S3.
10:12:45 <edd> S:where online does the user community for this stuff live?
10:12:46 <dc_www2003> Added comment S4.
10:21:04 <mattb>http://www.hackdiary.com/archives/000033.html
10:21:04 <dc_www2003> U: http://www.hackdiary.com/archives/000033.html from mattb
10:21:15 <mattb> U:|my notes on www2003 day 2
10:21:16 <dc_www2003> Titled item U.
10:22:42 <edd> S:EMMA, RDF dependence
10:22:42 <dc_www2003> Added comment S5.
10:23:34 * edd tries to locate eric miller
10:57:57 <amy> amy is now known as amyvdh
11:44:54 <ChanServ> [#www2003] This channel is publicly logged and blogged: http://www2003.xmlhack.com/
12:01:50 <dajobe> evolution of blogspace...
12:01:57 <dajobe> IBM guy
12:02:10 <dajobe> ... we analyse the web pretty well
12:02:25 <dajobe> srch - little analyzing of evolution
12:02:37 <dajobe> srch - tools for understanding evo not yet fully devel
12:02:48 <dajobe> srch - internet archive, see other paper here
12:03:15 <dajobe> ... diff to generate and analyze this data - crawling, copyright issues, data keeping around, large scale, want to track changes
12:03:29 * hugoh wonders where the conventions to take notes (if any) are documented
12:03:40 <dajobe> who knows
12:04:10 <dajobe> srchn - "weblogs are a fascinating phenomenon in their own right"
12:04:17 <dajobe> srch - introduces them
12:04:30 <hugoh> Semantic Web Services panel: who understands what SWS are? 20% of the audience, 60% of the panel
12:04:31 <dajobe> [phenomenon ... great word]
12:04:45 <mattb>http://www.w3.org/2003/05/24-semweb-dd/
12:04:45 <dc_www2003> V: http://www.w3.org/2003/05/24-semweb-dd/ from mattb
12:04:47 <dajobe> srch - entries, sidebar, author info
12:04:52 <mattb> V:|Semantic Web developer day track revised
12:04:52 <dc_www2003> Titled item V.
12:04:57 <mattb> V:some cancellations, some new talks
12:04:58 <dc_www2003> Added comment V1.
12:04:58 <dajobe> srch - usually Open Source tools
12:05:04 <dajobe> srch - quotes slashdot
12:05:14 <dajobe> srch - [did he cite it?]
12:05:40 <dajobe> srch - characteristics - quriky, personjal, consumerd by a small number of repeat visitors. personal, "perhaps distrubingly personal"
12:06:05 <dajobe> srch - example "what the duck" page, was page of the day on blogger, may 12
12:06:17 <libby> hey alberto's talking tomorrow :)
12:06:42 <dajobe> srch - blogspace factoids, blogs started circ 1996
12:06:51 <dajobe> srch - popularity 1999- exploded
12:06:57 <dajobe> srch - article in Wired kmag
12:07:03 <dajobe> sch - newsweek estimates 500K blogs
12:07:05 <hugoh> SWSP - Grosof: parsing of Semantic Web Services: Semantic (Web Services) and (Semantic Web) Services
12:07:36 * dajobe goes off to blog this talk
12:07:46 <dajobe> srch - blogs are good evolutionary data
12:08:09 <dajobe> srch - increasingly imortnat but no systtematic study and each study must take an evoulatuionry perspective
12:08:26 <dajobe> srch - started from popular blog hosting sties, got around 24K blogs and then used the archive links to get 10x more
12:08:26 <shab> srch - blogspace = all bloggs over all time
12:08:46 <hugoh> SWSP - reqs: support business-process communications, support SWS tasks above current WS layers
12:09:06 <dajobe> srch - study how the graph link structure evolves for converstations over blogs
12:09:24 <dajobe> srch - .. over time
12:09:59 <dajobe> srch - time graph problem
12:10:47 <dajobe> srch - process page dates giving 22K nodes, 70K unique edges, 777K edges if you count multiples (i.e multilinks)
12:10:58 <dajobe> srch - average multiplicity is 11
12:11:10 <dajobe> srch - starting 1 jan 1999
12:11:36 <dajobe> srch - to end 2002 (I guess, he said 2003)
12:11:54 * Jhendler in Web services panel - this okay?
12:12:02 <dajobe> srch - Qs - what are the communities? given that, how active is it, what timeframe?
12:12:36 <Jhendler> sws - Ben Grosof starts with a set of fascist rules for how panel will be run with an iron hand
12:12:37 <dajobe> srch - community historially grabbed from graph structure, subgraphs
12:12:49 <Jhendler> sws - he then give long intro violating all his own rules
12:13:03 <Jhendler> sws - truly amazing, his slides are copyrighted with all rights reserved
12:13:09 <libby> heh
12:13:11 <dajobe> srch - find dense subgraphs, see the paper
12:13:45 <hugoh> SWSP - adoption roadmap: expert to see in the beginning a lof of B2B interop; SWS will help reduce costs and improve agility/speed/flexibility
12:13:46 <dajobe> srch - how to find burstyness, given the communtiies
12:13:58 <dajobe> srch - from kleinberg 2002 bursty in streams of email
12:14:00 <Jhendler> sws - moderator gives long discussion with no value to set stage for panel
12:14:14 <Jhendler> sws - periodically says "this is one of the things I'm doing research on"
12:14:27 <Jhendler> sws - finally introduces panelist - Christof Bussler first
12:14:48 <hugoh> SWSP - on to first panelist: Christoph Bussler, Oracle Corp
12:15:06 <Jhendler> sws - Cristof "semantic (web services)"
12:15:40 <Jhendler> CB - obstacle - no clear defn - doesn't like WS+RDF
12:15:51 <dajobe> srch - he's explaining the predictive method
12:15:56 <Jhendler> CB = SWS not same as workflow manager ++
12:16:00 * hugoh notes the orthograph issues with CB's name: {Christof,Christoph,Cristof}
12:16:24 <dajobe> srch - measured in/out degree, fractons of all nodes in the strongly connected component, communities - number and fraction of blogspace
12:16:30 * Jhendler apologizes for lousy spelling
12:16:39 <dajobe> srch - also measured th enumber of communities in the *High* statae from teh algoorithm
12:17:14 <Jhendler> sws - CB: This is not just composition and message matching - it is dealing with many more issues than that
12:17:40 <dajobe> srch - shows converage of links into a well connected web
12:17:42 <Jhendler> CB: attraction - multi-billion dollar market, existing killer app (B2B integration)
12:17:42 <dc_www2003> Label CB not found.
12:18:09 <dajobe> Jhendler: better stick to lowercase :)
12:18:31 <Jhendler> SWS CB: wonderful intellectual challenge, good feedback mechanism (real users)
12:18:39 <dajobe> srch - the largest component becomes a giant component, 25% fraction of all verticies [somebody interpret that for me]
12:18:56 <shab> not a clue either
12:19:06 <Jhendler> SWS - A. Bernstein? - Swiss PhD
12:19:07 <shab> sorry that's for srch -
12:19:22 <dajobe> srch - participation in a community becomes more prevelant
12:19:45 <Jhendler> sws - AB: obstacale - ignoring workflow/process work, shouldn't reinvent the bad parts
12:19:52 <dajobe> srch - "active communtiies" in the high states, round the start of 2000, begins and at end 2001, burstyness grows very rapiddly
12:20:08 <dajobe> srch - asks could these have happened in any time graph?
12:20:31 <dajobe> srch - was it because weblogs became popular or was there a strructureal change?
12:21:07 <Jhendler> sws - PIF/PSL - Process interchange - based on KIF - ontology translation
12:21:38 <dajobe> srch - try making a randomized blogspace graph and see if the time graph works the same way
12:21:47 <dajobe> srch - if so, then the communities are a fake
12:21:57 <Jhendler> sws - AB - Keep it Simple Stupid -- hendler makes trouble - sorry
12:22:16 <dajobe> srch - no - randomized blogspace head towards a SCC much earlier
12:22:23 <shab> srch - randomised in that newly introduced blogs have links out randomly assigned
12:22:36 <dajobe> srch - people were *not* linking at random
12:22:51 <dajobe> srch - community evolutioon - blogspace has many more communities
12:22:55 <dajobe> srch .. than randomized
12:23:14 <Jhendler> sws - AB attractions - make the semantic web active
12:23:25 <Jhendler> sws - gracefully integrate human and machine
12:23:45 <dajobe> srch - closing - "exogenous events" - [wtf?]
12:23:50 <Jhendler> sws - as scribe I will not give my personal opinion of what speaker says (in room I occasionally do :->)
12:24:00 <dajobe> srch - points out when wired published the article, newsweek
12:24:25 <dajobe> srch - generative models cannot explain the effect of particular events that kicks off expanding commuity
12:24:29 <Jhendler> sws - Bijan parsia next speaker
12:24:35 <dajobe> srch - this factor muight be so signifiant, it throws off the other stuff
12:24:40 <dajobe> srch - summary
12:24:48 <dajobe> srch - measurement, modelling and tehnmro-proving are interwtwined
12:24:50 <Jhendler> sws - sws - bp - obstacle - Understanding (or lack there of)
12:24:57 <dajobe> srch - measurements need more attention to easibiluity, evoluton
12:25:07 <dajobe> srch - modelling needs mre attation to global properties, temporal evolutioon
12:25:16 <dajobe> srch - all must extend to non-web graphs
12:25:20 <Jhendler> sws - understanding what WSs do (UDDI example)
12:25:21 <dajobe> srch - end of talk - q&A
12:25:45 <dajobe> srch - if you chjange from uniform links, zipf distribution, would it be better model?
12:26:03 <dajobe> srch - we didn't do that, we did do web at large, but we'd be surpirsed if the numbers changed
12:26:26 <Jhendler> sws - Bijan talks about UDDI - and how it is opposite web architecture/approaches
12:26:49 <dajobe> srch - how did the blogs evolv into differenc omponetns of the "bowtie"? [??]
12:27:16 <dajobe> srch - growth was pretty smooth, trickled along, then took aoff as described. Nothing startiling in other fractions
12:27:21 <Jhendler> sws - BP: The Web Services people are reinventing the Semantic Web, but without knowing about us (and vice versa)
12:27:29 <dajobe> srch - Q: thought about modelling depth of weblogs?
12:27:40 <dajobe> srch - s/depth/death/
12:27:48 <shab> srch - I missed bits, did he talk about a any attempts to model the actual behaviour? if not that would be fun to play with
12:27:51 <dajobe> srch - yes, never really been a conclusive theoretical study of such a model
12:28:02 <Jhendler> sws - BP - attraction "principled AdHocery - organize and use information now, without programming, and use it right
12:28:05 <dajobe> srch - death of the SCC as vertices are removed, it's very resiliant
12:28:20 <mattb>http://www.searchengineposition.com/info/Articles/bowtie.asp
12:28:20 <dc_www2003> W: http://www.searchengineposition.com/info/Articles/bowtie.asp from mattb
12:28:22 <dajobe> srch - I expect the SCC would live a long time
12:28:24 <mattb> W:|Bowtie theory
12:28:25 <dc_www2003> Titled item W.
12:28:50 <dajobe> srch - Q: absolute # of blogs increasing, maybe use recent active blogs
12:28:51 <mattb> W:categorising types of linkage across the web
12:28:51 <dc_www2003> Added comment W1.
12:28:57 <Jhendler> sws - Bijan - talks about how we interact w/and put together services
12:29:03 <dajobe> srch - did look for burstiness on more active stuff, it still shows the growth
12:29:26 <dajobe> srch - Q: brwosing, searching & indexing blog problems?
12:29:37 <dajobe> srch - A: we got 24K blogs, many more, 10-100x maybe
12:29:38 <Jhendler> sws - Ben G presents Sheila McIlraith's slides
12:29:58 <Jhendler> sws - sheilaM Need for widespread adoption
12:30:08 <Jhendler> sws - intranets a good place to start
12:30:10 <dajobe> srch - we haven't been able to spend the time to find a compelling way to index corpora which have m,ost of their content in history - great Q
12:30:18 <Jhendler> sws - build applications and tools
12:30:20 <dajobe> srch - end of talk
12:31:15 <Jhendler> sws - q. how will the CS research community "tell businesses what problem is"
12:32:35 <Jhendler> scribe battery dying - Hugo, take over if anything important is said ...
12:32:50 * Jhendler hugoh
12:38:35 * DanC enjoys Richard Ishida's presentation... nice examples, good stage presence
12:38:50 <edd> DanC: seconded
12:39:40 <Jhendler> danC - which session?
12:39:49 <DanC> w3c track
12:41:22 <Jhendler> topic danC?
12:41:29 <DanC> internationalization
12:41:47 <dom> ( the session is about horizontal activities at W3C)
12:42:48 * edd gives richard many cheers and hurrays
12:43:30 <yod> it changes a lot when the person giving the talk has a remote to switch slides / control cursor
12:43:49 <yod> ...not stuck reading one's laptop screen
12:44:03 <edd> agreed. they're cheap aren't they now, these remotes? w3c could have one for such occasions.
12:44:09 * JibberJim boggles at "horizontal activities" ...
12:44:24 <edd> shame conf facility doesn't provide radio tie-clip mike
12:44:32 <edd> i think that's been quite restrictive
12:45:47 <Jhendler> sws - question - is it bad that sem web is early, web services struggling - too early?
12:46:05 <Jhendler> sws - answer (Bijan) - NO, they can co-evolve together
12:47:11 <DanC> ooh... weekly FAQ... I like that idea.
12:47:40 <DanC> weekly FAQ is done in I18N... I'd like it to see new validator tips come out at that rate
12:47:41 <dom> the QA Team had started a monthly FAQ in collab with WASP... but that didn't really work :/
12:50:47 <hugoh> sws - Q to CB: if all government funding was disappearing, what would you be doing, being from the industry? A: not sure where the funding would be coming from, but businesses are asking for it
12:52:17 <shab> apps - KAON Server session url http://kaon.semanticweb.org/
12:54:16 <shab> apps - dajobe asks about performance stats - stats on website
12:59:39 <hugoh> sws - Q: are you in contact with standards bodies to make this happen? A: Bijan mentions WSDL 1.2 RDF mapping and need to bring expertise to the group
13:01:44 <edd> steven pemberton observes that he hopes one day w3c would have a horizontal usability activity
13:02:04 <hugoh> sws - ... SWSI reaching out to WS community by having some discussions on www-ws mailing list
13:12:59 <hugoh> sws - Q: you are saying that WS need the SW to succeed; it would be like saying that the WWW needs the SW to succeed. A: need to succeed for their overall ambition
13:14:24 <hugoh> sws - ... all WSs have semantics, but they may not be expressed the way we would like them to be
13:14:40 <hugoh> sws - ... to get the most out of them
13:15:30 <DanC> hmm... the changes in XHTML 2 suggest to me that it shouldn't be called HTML at all. maybe webdocML or something
13:16:13 <Jhendler> How about Distributed Architecture Markup Language? (would make Murray Burke happy :->)
13:16:33 <edd> html events are a disaster - pemberton slide
13:16:39 * edd applauds
13:16:43 <nmg> heh
13:17:37 * MarkB waves to hugoh
13:17:48 <edd> xml events ... another thing i need to get a good primer on for xml.com
13:17:52 * hugoh waves back to MarkB
13:20:24 <mattb> not a lot of audience questions for speakers in the datamining talks
13:20:32 <mattb> i think people's brains are running out
13:20:45 <edd> pemberton onto talking about frames being a problem for usability
13:21:36 <edd> problems -- back button unintuitive, bookmark problem, reload not work properly, page-up and page-down often don't work as expected, you can get trapped in a frameset, search engines often refer you to pages without the associated frameset
13:22:29 <edd> no content neg, so device can't say "i can't do frames", so <noframes> needed, but almost nobody does this, security problems caused by not being obvious that different part of page comes from different places
13:23:55 <edd> A11y/Google analog: a blind person essentially sees what google does
13:24:01 <edd> so if you want google to see your site, make it accessible
13:24:22 <edd> bravo steven
13:44:02 <amy> amy is now known as amyvdh
13:45:10 <amyvdh> anyone seen Tim?
13:45:19 <amyvdh> in the last couple minutes
13:49:29 <amyvdh> ok, got him, nevermind
13:58:54 <edd> Final track session of the conference about to start.
13:59:08 <edd> I'm in the main hall for the W3C Town Hall meeting
13:59:28 <edd> Wondering if anyone will have questions to ask at all. This hasn't exactly been a question-ful conference.
14:00:43 <bitsko> quiet on the irc front, too...
14:05:40 <edd> Oh dear, hall just about empty for the W3C Q&A session.
14:05:50 <mattb> sw - many applications for national security post-911
14:06:08 <JibberJim> It's the last afternoon isn't it?
14:06:23 <mattb> apart from devday, yes
14:06:28 <JibberJim> scheduled wrong time I'd've thought.
14:06:38 <edd> always the same time each week
14:06:42 <edd> each year, even.
14:06:42 <JibberJim> or scheduled to get as few questions as possible maybe :-)
14:07:04 <edd> I think it just reflects that there aren't many people who feel they need to ask questions.
14:09:31 <danbri> speaker: greg fitzpatrick
14:09:48 <danbri> ...re size of room poor logistics?
14:13:50 <edd> complaint about no conference pins
14:13:54 <edd> oh dear.
14:14:01 <edd> anyone prime me with an interesting question?
14:14:48 <JibberJim> Why no conference badges?
14:15:02 <edd> No sponsor.
14:15:29 * Jhendler come on edd - you must have a hard question!
14:15:42 <edd> Jhendler: yes, but I can also guess what the answers are.
14:15:48 <dom> it doesn't even need to be hard... just interesting
14:15:53 <edd> but if anyone has something they want me to say..
14:15:58 <JibberJim> Yeah, but they might surprise you.
14:16:12 <Jhendler> they are showing some neat dependency stuff - wonder if they'll explain it
14:16:23 <danbri> Last year, one question (at some point, maybe not w3c town hall) was about whether folk found the wireless net access useful...
14:16:37 <danbri> but i can't remember what the answer was. think most folks appreciated it.
14:16:58 <dom> Jhendler, ask the question :)
14:17:09 <edd> OK, so I have a question I'll ask.
14:17:41 * Jhendler you could ask Danny W. what, now that the patent policy is done, he will do with his time (and if he remembers what his children look like)
14:18:42 <danbri> edd... q sparked by svg 'i like the svg diagrams, but can't see them on my computer/os combo
14:18:57 <danbri> ...since only workable plugin, Adobes, isn't available for my choice of platform
14:19:11 <JibberJim> Hmm, some people find Corel's usable...
14:19:33 <bitsko> probably covered broadly in the mailing lists (or fixed by 2?), but how exactly are we going to do extensible XHTML if it's stuck in DTDs?
14:19:41 <danbri> sorry, didn't get rest of question (phoen rang)
14:19:48 <mariebuda> :)
14:20:21 <bitsko> ie. one can't extend XHTML "easily" and still have it validate. particularly, like XML Schema's ANY
14:20:36 * bitsko assumes there's a RNG equiv of ANY
14:21:36 <edd> heheh
14:21:41 <edd> so i got the answer i expected
14:21:51 <JibberJim> Which was?
14:22:17 <edd> *session ends after 20 minutes*
14:22:21 <dom> sigh :/
14:23:13 <edd> Ah well, at least I can go and hear emiller and guha now.
14:23:52 <edd> JibberJim: hand-waving, largely.
14:23:55 <hugoh> where are they talking?
14:24:43 <Jhendler> liszt room
14:24:59 <edd> that's back toward the restaurant, right?
14:25:02 * edd heads over
14:25:18 <Jhendler> the one where the soc meaning BOF was
14:35:23 * hugoh notes that Liszt is packed
14:36:50 * DanC wonders if the net still sucks in liszt
14:43:04 <hugo> DanC, yes, the network in Liszt is borken (as you may have guessed from my ping time-out)
14:45:22 <hugo> hugo is now known as hugoh
15:40:29 <dirkx> did anyone post a URL to that SVG animation ??
15:42:04 <DanC> I don't think it's available via http just yet... there was a hoppinggoldfish.com address at the end of it.
15:42:59 <dirkx> Only music there as far as I can see: http://mysite.freeserve.com/hoppinggoldfish/index.html
15:46:19 <shab> Kieren was at the SVG tutorial and says he thinks it is on the web - see handouts from tutorial
15:46:37 <JibberJim> SVG tutorial?
15:47:03 <shab> From tues
15:55:11 <Frans> plenty SVG demo's in http://www.btinternet.com/~Frank.Hopgood/slides.zip
15:55:51 <JibberJim> 18MB!
15:56:40 <Frans> check! Plenty enough?
16:01:16 <dirkx> \msg alberto http://demo.asemantics.com/biz/buda/
16:01:43 <dirkx> Eh - blush - ignore that.
16:02:35 * danbri intrigued by the UN mention re www2004
16:02:42 * DanC is back with xchat upgraded; nice vera fonts etc.
16:03:18 <edd> Huh?
16:03:23 <edd> Where's the magic video we normally get?
16:03:41 * edd hmphs
16:03:43 <DanC> good question.
16:03:53 <dirkx> Hey you had the SVG animation !
16:04:07 <edd> There should be a decent preview of WWW2004.
16:04:11 <edd> Rather we got a confused web page.
16:08:28 <edd> That's all for now. Devday tomorrow,
16:50:39 <AndyS> Query BOF in Mozart (18:45-20:00)
16:50:56 <AndyS> i.e. now!
16:51:01 * DanC is having a little trouble finding Mozart
16:51:40 <AndyS> Through restaurant
16:52:05 <AndyS> At bottom of stairs from hotel, by lift at front of hotel
16:53:45 <DanC> thx :)
21:16:32 <bijan_> bijan_ is now known as bijan