WWW2004 conference IRC Chat Logs for 2004-05-18

11:30:04 Topic now WWW2004 conference chat 18-22 May 2004 - site http://www2004.org/ - weblog http://www2004.xmlhack.com/ - chat logs http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/www2004/

11:30:04 Users on #www2004: loggerw @dajobe dc04 @edd

11:32:12 * DanC tries to figure out _where_ his tutorial (http://www2004.org/tutorial.htm#TA3) will be

11:34:40 <edd> hey dc04

11:34:45 <edd> bah, tab completion.

11:34:47 <edd> hey danc too :)

12:07:39 <DanC> hy edd, libby

12:08:01 <libby> morning danc

12:08:01 * DanC wishes the gnome desktop knew how to change timezones

12:09:07 <edd> DanC, in gnome 2.6 it does.

12:09:32 <edd> DanC: you right-click the clock, select adjust date & time, then you get a dialog with, inter alia, TZ choice

12:09:52 <DanC> does, for example, xchat notice?

12:10:15 <edd> I have no idea. XChat is a mess anyway, so I'd bet not.

12:10:25 <libby> heya edd

12:10:30 <edd> wotcha libby

12:10:31 * DanC tries to remember what he read about ETA of gnome 2.6 in debian sid

12:11:13 <edd> DanC: there's a high bar set by the release manager. he basically wants us to manually build 2.6 for every arch and get it tested before he'll let it into sid

12:11:18 <DanC> xchat evidently sucks less than everything else... I see you're using it, edd.

12:11:56 <edd> DanC: yes, that's the unhappy situation. various gnome-chat sort of projects start, and then fail, cos XChat doesn't suck enough to motivate anyone to make it not suck more.

12:12:35 <DanC> I'm actually not aware of how xchat sucks. is it the code? cuz as a user, it seems not to suck very much.

12:12:44 <edd> DanC: but afaik xchat doesn't use gconf, which i'm pretty sure it would need to hook into to be alerted of changes.

12:13:10 <edd> DanC: mainly on gnome integration. otoh if the GNOME TZ changer changes the entire system, as i think it does, i see no reason why xchat shouldn't follow suit.

12:13:16 <DanC> gconf is scary black-magic, to me. Too reminiscent of the windows registry.

12:13:21 <edd> however, i never change timezones, i just adjust my brian

12:13:56 <edd> happily gconf is both simpler and superior to the registry

12:14:32 * edd gets back to writing

12:14:50 <DanC> goodness... more spam forged in Eve Maler's name. I get several per day that way.

12:21:52 <MacIntyre> MacIntyre is now known as bkdelong

12:24:34 <bkdelong> Morning to the City That Never Sleeps...

12:28:18 <DanC> any suggestions on where to get breakfast? I wonder if I have time.

12:28:58 * libby just missed a trip to somewhere nice but doesn;t know the name of it :(

12:29:12 * libby also just missed a trip to food with atomites :(

12:29:15 <libby> sigh

12:30:16 <DanC> which atomites?

12:31:10 <libby> eric sent a message to the atom list suggesting breakfast with atom at 8

12:31:33 * DanC grumbles; wishes ericm would return my phone calls

12:32:05 * DanC doesn't see a breakfast msg in http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/maillist.html

12:32:24 <bkdelong>http://yp.yahoo.com/py/ypBrowse.py?ycat=7766842&nrby=1&csz=New+York+NY+10019&country=us&mag=8&cs=9&ed=9lH5_6160SyHU6e.FNDxCj8Cbf3KKl7gWuPLEP1HdUMprMkueBICVTbFWnbldw--

12:32:24 <dc04> A: http://yp.yahoo.com/py/ypBrowse.py?ycat=7766842&nrby=1&csz=New+York+NY+10019&country=us&mag=8&cs=9&ed=9lH5_6160SyHU6e.FNDxCj8Cbf3KKl7gWuPLEP1HdUMprMkueBICVTbFWnbldw-- from bkdelong

12:32:34 * libby perhaps confused and jetlagged

12:33:04 <bkdelong> oops. well....that should give you most ofthe restaurants in the area sans recommendations

12:33:40 <bkdelong> There's some listed under Breakfast, Bakeries, Coffee Houses, and Bagels & Donuts.

12:34:02 <libby> danc: http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg03761.html

12:34:15 <bkdelong> Sounds like someone needs to create a geo: based restaurant recommendations schema. ;P

12:34:15 <DanC> ah... there it is

12:34:39 <DanC> A:|restaruants in the NY area

12:34:40 <dc04> Titled item A.

12:35:02 <bkdelong> That's actually based on the hotel address, DanC

12:35:07 <bkdelong> (Sorry still early for me.)

12:41:06 <libby> heya maatb

12:41:10 <libby> mattb even

12:41:15 <mattb> hey there libby

12:41:16 <mattb> where are you?

12:41:25 * DanC wanders off to find my tutorial room, and, if I'm lucky, breakfast...

12:41:31 <mattb> i just got here... in the lobby

12:41:37 <mattb> is there proper wireless in the conference rooms?

12:41:49 <mattb> up here it's a free 30-minute trial apparently

12:42:13 <libby> I'm still in my room, down ina bit

12:42:25 <libby> (I'm paying for ethnernet network)

12:42:28 <mattb> heh

12:42:32 <libby> you doing to a tutorial maatb?

12:42:32 <mattb> i just saw robin berjon walk by, i think

12:42:35 <mattb> didn't catch him tho

12:42:36 <libby> oh cool

12:42:42 <mattb> also two people from bbc world service who were in budapest

12:42:48 <mattb> yeah, i'm going to the content labelling workshop

12:42:54 <mattb> the danbri/ericp thing

12:43:09 <libby> oh yeah

12:43:21 <libby> I wanna got to that

12:43:26 <mattb> looks like they've got some proper access control going on here

12:43:29 <mattb> ibm-style

12:43:46 <mattb> all the cards have magnetic stripes on them

12:43:46 <edd> mattb: that 30m trial can be restarted ad inifinutm if it's anything like the starwood hotels i've used before

12:43:46 <mattb> i doubt anyone will check all that hard tho

12:43:49 <mattb> i need some kind person who'll let me put my conference rucksack in their room

12:43:53 <mattb> those proceeding books are heavy!

12:43:59 <mattb> edd: i was wondering that

12:44:08 <edd> mattb: just re-fill the survey

12:44:26 <mattb> it said something about selected public sites, but it's allowing ssh and imap/ssl

12:44:33 <mattb> i guess i misread it

12:44:33 <libby> can use mine if you like mattb...

12:45:02 <mattb> libby: thought you'd never offer ;)

12:45:16 <libby> heh, sorry

12:45:30 <mattb> i'm such a scrounger

12:45:35 <mattb> in my cheap hotel

12:45:41 <mattb> i walked the 20 blocks again this morning

12:45:46 <mattb> new york absolutely floors me

12:45:49 <mattb> stunning

12:45:50 <libby> but you're doin' it for the license payers :)

12:46:03 <mattb> yeah, leaves more money for fame academy

12:47:46 <libby> heheh

12:48:33 <bkdelong> You should have left your machine on with Netstumbler or something. Tons of open wireless. ;)

12:48:49 <mattb> bkdelong: there's open wireless reachable from my hotel room :)

12:48:56 <mattb> essid is 'fashionfocus'

12:48:58 <mattb> i wonder who they are

12:49:33 <bkdelong> where's your hotel?

12:49:55 <mattb> on 35th off 5th avenue near the empire state building

12:50:34 <bkdelong> heh. What's the NAME of your hotel :)

12:51:05 <mattb> it's the comfort inn

12:51:49 <mattb> hmm, i see people with coffee

12:51:52 <mattb> where's the coffee?

12:51:59 * mattb misses the buffet breakfasts in budapest

12:52:14 <mattb> that really made staying in a cheap hotel bearable :)

12:52:39 <mattb> right, off to find my workshop

12:52:41 <mattb> tata

13:22:33 * pshab waves to Libby

13:25:56 <edd> mattb: found yer tute then?

13:28:34 <mattb> yup

13:28:35 <mattb> up on the 5th floor

13:28:46 <mattb> some wireless problems, sorted now

13:29:07 <pshab> The connections down stairs are really stong where I am.

13:30:03 <bkdelong> Weird being in backchannels but not the con itself.

13:31:03 <libby> where are you pshab?

13:32:19 <pshab> in Interaction design and semweb workshop

13:32:34 <libby> ah yep

13:32:56 <pshab> interesting presentations so far on second about a display system for generating interfaces from RDF - called Hera

13:33:05 * libby went to content filtering workshop

13:33:12 * mattb there also

13:33:19 <mattb>http://web.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~kaz/www2004/

13:33:20 <dc04> B: http://web.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~kaz/www2004/ from mattb

13:33:27 <mattb> B:|WWW2004 Workshop on Content Labeling

13:33:28 <dc04> Titled item B.

13:33:35 <mattb> B:*Technical and Socio-Cultural Challenges and Solutions*

13:33:35 <dc04> Added comment B1.

13:34:15 <mattb> B:[papers|http://web.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~kaz/www2004/papers/]

13:34:16 <dc04> Added comment B2.

13:35:09 <libby> B:[agenda|http://web.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~kaz/www2004/program.html]

13:35:10 <dc04> Added comment B3.

13:35:51 <mattb> B:in Japan, the mobile phone is currently the primary communication device for teenagers and 20somethings

13:35:52 <dc04> Added comment B4.

13:35:54 <pshab> are the workshop papers on the web - the papers are - http://www2003.org/cdrom/ but can't see the Workshop details

13:36:49 <mattb> B:so parental supervision is not an option for safe surfing

13:36:49 <dc04> Added comment B5.

13:37:06 <pshab>http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~hera/

13:37:07 <dc04> C: http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~hera/ from pshab

13:37:31 <pshab> c:HERA project Web site

13:37:56 <pshab> C:HERA project Web site

13:37:56 <dc04> Added comment C1.

13:38:11 <libby> C:|HERA project Web site

13:38:11 <dc04> Titled item C.

13:38:13 <libby> ?

13:40:23 <pshab> sorry but rusty with the bot syntax..

13:40:43 <pshab>http://topia.demo.telin.nl/

13:40:44 <dc04> D: http://topia.demo.telin.nl/ from pshab

13:40:46 <mattb> C1:""

13:40:47 <dc04> Deleted comment C1.

13:41:44 <pshab> D:|TOPIA Demo - interface over semantic web info

13:41:45 <dc04> Titled item D.

13:44:26 <pshab> hera and topia are worth following up in relation to query --> display approaches

13:45:12 * mattb wonders how to publicise this channel

13:45:21 <mattb> think we could put up some little notices?

13:45:36 <mattb> obviously it'll be busier tomorrow

13:46:28 <pshab> good idea. What kind?/detail?

13:47:06 <mattb> just simple a4 laserprint with server details i guess

13:47:13 <mattb> if people know what irc is, they'll know what to do

13:47:30 <mattb> so just big bold type you can glance at on the way past

13:49:53 <bkdelong> Or post an announcement on the main page of the conf Web site.

13:50:06 <mattb> wonder who to talk to

13:51:16 <pshab> a link to the community coverage page from the conf homepage?

13:51:33 <bkdelong> Are there still Student Volunteers at this show?

13:51:55 <pshab> yeh there is one behind me in this session

13:51:58 <bkdelong> The kids in the volunteer office may be doing Web-site related stuff or at least know who to talk to.

13:52:40 <bkdelong> They also can be the ones to produce signs

13:53:05 <bkdelong> I'm surprised there's no wiki for a note board.

13:53:07 * mattb mail details to a couple of people

13:53:17 <bkdelong> Sorry - heh I ran the volunteer office for WWW6

13:53:34 <bkdelong> and created the press room since Stanford hadn't thought of that.

13:53:52 <mattb> organisation feels quite top-down

13:53:53 <mattb> ibm-driven

13:54:09 * mattb wonders where dajobe's got to

13:54:16 <libby> bags are quite nice tho :)

13:54:35 <pshab> ... word of mouth and A4 sheet would do a good job

13:54:51 <pshab> A6 even :-)

13:55:01 <mattb> they don't have a4 over here ;)

13:55:13 <pshab> :-)

13:55:27 <mattb> hope you brought some with you

13:57:27 <pshab> How can we make it clear which sessions we are talking about when when we make notes?

13:58:47 <pshab>http://interaction.ecs.soton.ac.uk/idsw04/

13:58:47 <dc04> E: http://interaction.ecs.soton.ac.uk/idsw04/ from pshab

13:59:33 <mattb> B:proposed new solutions have RDF as a basis

13:59:45 <dc04> Added comment B6.

13:59:45 <pshab> e:|WWW2004 Workshop Beyond the Click: Interaction Design and the Semantic Web

13:59:45 <pshab> E:|WWW2004 Workshop Beyond the Click: Interaction Design and the Semantic Web

13:59:45 <dc04> Titled item E.

13:59:46 <pshab> sorry

14:00:07 <mattb> pshab: don't worry about it :)

14:00:07 <mattb> if you feel self-conscious, you can talk to dc04 in /msg

14:00:09 <mattb> to make corrections and stuff

14:00:18 <mattb> obviously links are best seen in public

14:01:03 <bkdelong> Maybe create one link with the tut title....and some abbrev. version of the title...and then refer to that tut in all future links.

14:01:25 <mattb> or just create one chump item per session and put all links inline in its comments

14:02:10 <bkdelong> Hmmm. The Student Volunteer link on the IW3C2 page is giving a 404 and I can't find any mention of volunteers on the WWW2004 site. But they are the group with the best ability to get the word out fast and know the most of what's going on.

14:02:35 <bkdelong> They're usually on email throughout the show but I can't even find that online.

14:02:57 <mattb> B:workshop includes representation from (amongst others) [Internet Content Rating Association|http://www.icra.org/], [BBC|http://www.bbc.co.uk], [Vodafone|http://www.vodafone.com]

14:02:58 <dc04> Added comment B7.

14:03:35 <pshab> E:lots of interesting discussion about how to go from SemWeb data to display esp. questions about query

14:03:36 <dc04> Added comment E1.

14:04:06 <pshab> yeh: one chump item and notes seems like a good idea

14:05:22 <pshab> E:talking about the people/community side of Sem Web being important - not just "data data data..."

14:05:23 <dc04> Added comment E2.

14:06:15 <pshab> E: talking about FOAF in that context - foaf good basis but need to have a mechanism for finding extensions where necessary?

14:06:16 <dc04> Added comment E3.

14:06:57 <mattb> B:[ICRA label tester|http://www.icra.org/cgi-bin/labelTester.cgi?lang=EN&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2004.xmlhack.com]

14:06:57 <dc04> Added comment B8.

14:06:58 <pshab> Matt - problem with the notes to chump log is makes the IRC look really messy?

14:07:17 <mattb> pshab: you can scribe in the channel

14:07:23 <mattb> then, if we have the latest bots...

14:07:27 <mattb> loggerw, chump B

14:07:27 <mattb> B:See [http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/www2004/2004-05-18#T14-07-27|discussion]

14:07:28 <dc04> Added comment B9.

14:07:33 <mattb> see?

14:08:06 <pshab> err... no

14:08:22 <mattb> the loggerbot puts a pointer to the irc logs into the chump entry for B

14:08:25 <libby> pshb, do you mean if several people are logging differen t sessiosn?

14:08:50 <mattb> chumping means we get bot announce lines every time we chump

14:09:16 <pshab> yeh. thats the probme. The chump log looks great though!

14:09:29 <pshab> s/probem/problem

14:09:51 <mattb> so we could just chump an entry for the session, ask loggerw to put a pointer to irc logs in it as I did above, then scribe in the channel

14:10:08 <mattb> just put chump comments in when there's a URL to record or really important points to make

14:10:33 <mattb> then people can read the irc logs for the detail

14:11:31 <bkdelong> hmm. maybe put a quick howto somewhere?

14:11:47 <bkdelong> Or have Edd put one at the top of the chump page?

14:12:07 <edd> there should be a link to usefulinc.com/chump/README.txt somewhere

14:12:12 <edd> there was last year

14:12:27 <pshab> E:good discussion about how to find stuff a sem web concept e.g. 'person'

14:12:28 <dc04> Added comment E4.

14:12:29 <edd> sory, MANUL.txt

14:12:32 <edd> MANUAL

14:12:41 <edd> -> http://usefulinc.com/chump/MANUAL.txt

14:13:14 <bkdelong> well, OK....but may want to link i in for new attendeed who it the chump page from the www2004 Web site or come into chan based on a sign. :)

14:13:37 <mattb> yeah, we could do with a five-point guide

14:14:17 <pshab> E:... markup of doc as authoring e.g. sematnic marker for tony blair for prime minister kinda thing

14:14:17 <dc04> Added comment E5.

14:15:00 <pshab> E: different from an end user - uses

14:15:00 <dc04> Added comment E6.

14:16:58 <edd> we can put it in the right hand side

14:17:02 <pshab> E: Jim H. pointed to a project http://pear.cs.umbc.edu/swoogle/

14:17:03 <dc04> Added comment E7.

14:17:06 <edd> but dajobe is maintaining the templates not me

14:17:32 <pshab> is dojobe about?

14:17:50 <pshab> s/dojobe/dajobe

14:19:10 <pshab> E:... problem of concept e.g. coffee defined in 10 different places with 10 different perspectives...

14:19:11 <dc04> Added comment E8.

14:19:44 <pshab> E:Is a problem with english conflating the 10 differetn concepts of 'coffee' e.g. bevergae/crop

14:19:45 <dc04> Added comment E9.

14:21:30 <pshab> Jim H. saying could have a way to make it clearer what particualr concept a query is related to...

14:22:07 <pshab> E:Jim H. saying could/need have a way to make it clearer what particualr concept a query is related to...

14:22:07 <dc04> Added comment E10.

14:22:42 <pshab> E:... difficult to talk about this stuff as the Semantic Web content is not yet very extensive...

14:22:43 <dc04> Added comment E11.

14:24:34 <pshab> E:Ben Shneiderman - asking. is there a project that takes a text qury and returns concepts? (I think?)

14:24:35 <dc04> Added comment E12.

14:26:06 <pshab> E: Ben and Jim are arguing about if there should be a smaller number of ontologies - so people learn them (or not) muhc like people learn classification schems like dewy

14:26:06 <dc04> Added comment E13.

14:27:21 <bkdelong> OK - I emailed the student volunteer office

14:28:29 <mattb> eek, annotea mentioned

14:28:40 <pshab> E:... have now gone to FOAF projects to show example of browsers... foafnaut

14:28:41 <dc04> Added comment E14.

14:30:20 <pshab> E:going very slowly...

14:30:20 <dc04> Added comment E15.

14:31:09 <pshab> E:talking about how it (foafnaut) could be improved...

14:31:09 <dc04> Added comment E16.

14:31:30 <pshab> E:foafexplorer is down?

14:31:30 <dc04> Added comment E17.

14:32:05 <pshab> E:Session breaks for coffee.

14:32:06 <dc04> Added comment E18.

14:32:33 <mattb> break...

14:32:39 * edd breaks

14:32:46 <pshab> does that work as a way of taking notes?

14:35:29 <bkdelong> Dunno about foafexplorer...but I believe JibberJim was waiting to do some work on hismachine before FOAFNaut stabelized.

14:36:14 <bkdelong> pshab: Yes, very much so: http://www2004.xmlhack.com/2004/05/18/2004-05-18.html#2004-05-18%2013:58

14:39:04 * DanC tunes in... a bit rumbly-in-the-tumbly...'

14:39:58 <bkdelong> heh

14:40:13 <bkdelong> I thought you were tut'ing.

14:43:38 <edd> umm, i just realises the inttrstructions *are* linked

14:43:42 <edd> top-right

14:44:22 <bkdelong> hmm

14:44:58 <bkdelong> Well, yes.

14:45:43 <bkdelong> Not conducive if you're popping in during a session. If/when dajobe gets online perhaps we can add a few lines of how to make a note, how to label it, and then how to take notes under that note.

14:48:42 <pshab> has anyone seen dajobe, is he ok?

14:49:09 <edd> pshab: he went off to a breakfast meeting with emiller and some Atom folk

14:49:21 <edd> pshab: maybe it's ongoign

14:49:36 <pshab> cool.

14:50:26 <pshab> edd: are you here?

14:50:39 <edd> pshab: you mean in NYC? no

14:50:58 <mattb> who are the atom folk here?

14:51:46 <edd> sam ruby

14:51:47 <edd> dunno who else

14:52:52 <mattb> B:[arrests made for cases related to "dating sites" in japan in 2003|http://www.iajapan.org/hotline/mobilepdf/4_kioka2.pdf]

14:52:52 <dc04> Added comment B10.

14:52:52 <mattb> B:more than 1000 per year

14:52:52 <dc04> Added comment B11.

14:53:27 <mattb> B10:[arrests made for cases related to "dating sites" in japan (february 2003 figures)|http://www.iajapan.org/hotline/mobilepdf/4_kioka2.pdf]

14:53:27 <dc04> Replaced comment B10.

14:54:03 <bkdelong> arrests?

14:54:35 <pshab> chump help - to avoid embarrasment one my part - can someone show me how to delete my [stand alone] chump entries for topia and hera and put them in as comments to the session chump?

14:55:41 <shellac> I don't think you can

14:56:30 <bkdelong> pshab: check the instructions and see if it mentions it.

14:56:55 <mattb> the one thing you can't do is delete an item

14:57:05 <shellac> you can delete comments, eg B5:"", but not whole entries

14:57:17 <mattb> you can change its URL like: B:=http://replacement.com

14:57:18 <danbri__> you also can't render it in 3d

14:57:18 <pshab> :-)

14:57:20 <mattb> ignore danbri__, he's a defeatist

14:57:24 <pshab> thanks

14:57:52 <mattb> take http://www2004.xmlhack.com/index.xml and do a transform into some 3d svg magic, i dare you :)

14:58:04 <pshab> E4:good discussion about how to find stuff a sem web concept e.g. 'person'

14:58:04 <dc04> Replaced comment E4.

14:58:52 <shellac> mattb: svg doesn't do 3d

14:59:12 <pshab> E4:good discussion about how to find stuff about/related to/etc. a sem web concept e.g. 'person'

14:59:12 <dc04> Replaced comment E4.

14:59:16 <shellac> I have a patent on the third coordinate in svg, which I plan on enforcing

14:59:21 <mattb> lol

14:59:28 <mattb> surely anything that does 2d does 3d with the right vector maths

15:00:03 <shellac> not if you don't pay my shocking licence fees :-)

15:00:03 <danbri__> speaking for your employer, shellac?

15:00:03 <mattb> hmm, lol not appropriate during conf sessions

15:00:05 <shellac> loq?

15:00:28 <mattb> qutbcol

15:00:28 <mattb> quiet-under-the-breath-chuckle out loud

15:00:49 <shellac> HP only holds defensive patents, AIUI

15:01:00 * pshab lol inappropiately in session at that comment

15:01:06 <shellac> me, on the other hand...

15:01:20 <mattb> B:speaking now: [Akio Kokubo|http://www.icra.org/people/akiokokubu/]

15:01:20 <dc04> Added comment B12.

15:01:34 <pshab> mattb's not shellac's :-)

15:01:45 * danbri__ a fan of AK's efforts

15:01:48 <shellac> It all goes in your file, paul

15:02:11 <mattb> B:talking about the [SFS filtering browser|http://www.iajapan.org/rating/mobilefiltering/index_en.html] demo system

15:02:11 <dc04> Added comment B13.

15:03:20 <pshab> dajobe is just logging on...

15:03:31 <mattb> let's all hide

15:04:30 <pshab> E:session restarts

15:04:31 <dc04> Added comment E19.

15:05:21 <pshab> E: Haystack - MIT project http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/

15:05:22 <dc04> Added comment E20.

15:06:16 <pshab> E: allow end users to add semanticly meaningful markup - based on idea of identifiying types of data

15:06:17 <dc04> Added comment E21.

15:07:32 <mattb> pshab: you could inline your links like: E:[Haystack - MIT project|http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/]

15:07:47 <mattb> otherwise the chump page just displays the http:// without any linkage

15:08:15 <pshab> E: doing demo... shows a context menu generated from the data

15:08:16 <dc04> Added comment E22.

15:08:43 <pshab> mattb: thanks will give it a go :-)

15:09:11 <pshab> E20:[Haystack - MIT project|http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/]

15:09:11 <dc04> Replaced comment E20.

15:10:22 <mattb> general point for all users: '/msg dc04 help' and it'll /msg you back with all the commands

15:12:43 <pshab> E:... creates display based on 'wrapper induction' - identifying patterns via feedback from user(?) and/or DOM of the page

15:12:44 <dc04> Added comment E23.

15:13:05 <pshab> E23:... creates display based on 'wrapper induction' - e.g. identifying patterns via feedback from user(?) and/or DOM of the page

15:13:05 <dc04> Replaced comment E23.

15:14:16 <pshab> E: can also map properties of things identified to properties in external ontologies (?)

15:14:16 <dc04> Added comment E24.

15:14:50 <mattb> hey dajobe

15:15:02 <dajobe> hello

15:17:55 * dajobe is in the same session as pshab, amiles

15:18:05 <dajobe> and golbeck who's not online here

15:18:28 <jhendler> dajobe, are you in the interface wkshp?

15:18:36 <pshab> E:... this is done in practice via highlighting a node and saying this is a dc:title...

15:18:36 <dc04> Added comment E25.

15:19:54 <dajobe> jhendler: yes

15:20:05 <dajobe> have you a better offer jhendler?

15:20:35 <jhendler> stuck in the W3C AC mtg for a while - will try to be back down there later

15:20:53 <dajobe> ah, I escaped as the break ended :)

15:21:31 <golbeck> ooh. i found jhendler

15:21:33 <jhendler> sigh - wish I could escape

15:21:38 <mattb> yay libby

15:21:44 <mattb> comes to the workshop room with a multiway power adapter

15:21:48 <jhendler> too many "have to" and not enough "wanna"

15:22:05 <golbeck> i "wanna" get one google pen of each color

15:23:06 <dajobe> jen goes to the podium

15:23:14 <mattb> B:now talking: [Daniel Appelquist|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22daniel+appelquist%22&btnG=Search] from Vodafone, talking with a focus on European operations

15:23:15 <dc04> Added comment B14.

15:24:05 <pshab> dajobe have been using E: to add comments to chump under session - see log for discussion

15:24:56 <pshab> see the community coverage page... http://www2004.xmlhack.com/

15:24:57 <edd> mattb: get Appelquist to fix dajobe's phone :)

15:25:57 <pshab> E: jen talking about IRC bots... kinds of things they do

15:25:58 <dc04> Added comment E26.

15:26:36 <mattb> B:in the context of [Vodafone Live|http://www.vodafone.co.uk/live] - not "Internet on your phone" or "WAP"

15:26:37 <dc04> Added comment B15.

15:26:42 <pshab> E: talking about FOAFbot - not currently running?

15:26:42 <dc04> Added comment E27.

15:26:57 <dajobe> E:no, it's not running on #foaf at the moment

15:26:58 <dc04> Added comment E28.

15:27:03 <mattb> B:looks like a walled-garden with the platform provider aggregating content providers and providing micropayment services

15:27:03 <dc04> Added comment B16.

15:27:15 <mattb> B:platform provides trust relationship with the consumer

15:27:15 <dc04> Added comment B17.

15:27:18 <pshab> E:the first interesting way to get to FOAF data interactively

15:27:19 <dc04> Added comment E29.

15:27:53 <pshab> E: created Trustbot... not sure what it did - missed that bit

15:27:54 <dc04> Added comment E30.

15:28:20 <pshab> E:going to give examples - currency/weather/translation

15:28:20 <dc04> Added comment E31.

15:29:03 <mattb> B:presence in more than one country means there's a patchwork of regulatory issues and cultural norms

15:29:04 <dc04> Added comment B18.

15:29:06 <pshab> E:semantic web adds... ?

15:29:07 <dc04> Added comment E32.

15:29:14 <mattb> B:eg some Dutch content would be considered unsuitable in other countries

15:29:15 <dc04> Added comment B19.

15:30:03 <pshab> E:showing wsbot. as a demo of three services. based on exising web services

15:30:04 <dc04> Added comment E33.

15:31:03 <pshab> E:notes that if the services go down so does the bot service - question, could add services if one goes down? yes but not done here

15:31:04 <dc04> Added comment E34.

15:31:22 <jhendler> E: trustbot extended foaf to include a trust value, and allowed a computed trust value between two users

15:31:23 <dc04> Added comment E35.

15:31:54 <pshab> E:have help for each function to show how to use it

15:31:55 <dc04> Added comment E36.

15:32:02 <edd> E:(FOAFbot is currently resting)

15:32:03 <dc04> Added comment E37.

15:32:24 <mattb> B:content stored in Vodafone Content Markup Language, which supports addition of RDF metadata (eg DC, PRISM), transcoded into appropriate format for delivery to phones

15:32:24 <dc04> Added comment B20.

15:32:24 <libby> aw

15:32:24 <libby> (re foafbot)

15:32:46 <edd> libby: in a week's time this Mobo book is done and I'm back on semweb stuff :)

15:32:49 <dajobe> E:"restoring the DOS command line to us all"

15:32:50 <dc04> Added comment E38.

15:33:05 <edd> libby: Mono not Mobo, I mean

15:33:05 <pshab> E:question/note - just giving us back the dos command line?

15:33:05 <dc04> Added comment E39.

15:33:06 <libby> cool edd :)

15:33:14 <mattb> mofo

15:33:31 <pshab> E:yes but... part of conversations...

15:33:32 <dc04> Added comment E40.

15:34:20 <pshab> E:question - why apple/MS not tried to do this at the OS level?

15:34:21 <dc04> Added comment E41.

15:34:44 <mattb> B:they refer to the internet as a whole as 'Off-Net'

15:34:44 <dc04> Added comment B21.

15:34:53 <mattb> B:the vodafone live world is 'On-Net'

15:34:53 <dc04> Added comment B22.

15:34:58 <pshab> E:but why not taken it from the chat communities and added it to the OS level?

15:34:58 <dc04> Added comment E42.

15:35:03 * dajobe grrr voda

15:35:30 <libby> yeah re grrr

15:35:33 <pshab> E:They have - been doing it for 30 years but hasn't taken...

15:35:34 <dc04> Added comment E43.

15:35:51 <pshab> voda?

15:35:51 <libby> my mobile bill 140 quid two months on the trot

15:35:58 <libby> vodafone

15:35:58 <pshab> ah that voda

15:36:56 <pshab> E:need an economic model - BBC doing [something like this] this internally? or did I missunderstand that comment?

15:36:56 <dc04> Added comment E44.

15:37:16 * mattb wonders what the bbc is doing

15:37:17 <mattb> i come to conferences to find out :)

15:37:35 <pshab> umm. was someone listening more closely than me?

15:37:43 <Jibbler> mattb: hehe :)

15:37:59 <pshab> Libby:this is very like your bot.

15:38:21 <davidn> example: http://www.conversagent.com/

15:38:22 <dajobe> they are both based on PircBot, yeah?

15:38:50 <libby> my bot's pretty simple

15:39:01 <pshab> E:have a canned list of queries ... how going to know/find how to use them

15:39:02 <dc04> Added comment E45.

15:39:02 <dajobe> hey, who said chumping

15:39:05 <libby> though it does have query routing and on-the-fly query creation these days

15:39:25 <pshab> but very much the kind of thing discussed here

15:39:58 <mattb> B:one possible model for parental filtering (assuming content is labeled): child attempts to view possibly-forbidden content, parent gets a yes/no SMS

15:40:10 <dc04> Added comment B23.

15:40:16 <pshab> E:... about communities (members) evolvign/learning it together

15:40:17 <dc04> Added comment E46.

15:40:37 <mattb> B:note: this is not implemented, and would be opt-in by the child too

15:40:38 <dc04> Added comment B24.

15:40:51 <pshab> E:... example insult bot - sends you a random insult

15:40:52 <dc04> Added comment E47.

15:41:11 <pshab> E:question - semantic web relation?

15:41:11 <dc04> Added comment E48.

15:41:37 <pshab> E:Sem Web Backed - FOAFbot/Sem Web Web Serivces...

15:41:38 <dc04> Added comment E49.

15:42:25 <pshab> E: using web services makes it a bit easier than HTML scraping...

15:42:25 <dc04> Added comment E50.

15:43:01 <mattb> B:mobile users have different expectations from PC users: the phone is an appliance, and so is not expected to crash or be random in any way

15:43:01 <dc04> Added comment B25.

15:43:18 <mattb> B:break user trust just once and they'll give up on you

15:43:18 <dc04> Added comment B26.

15:43:51 <pshab> E:e.g. 6 lines of code using APIs that already exist

15:43:52 <dc04> Added comment E51.

15:44:38 <pshab> E: could be used to add webserivces (on the fly) by having a standrd syntax for it...

15:44:39 <dc04> Added comment E52.

15:44:45 <pshab> E:presentation ends

15:44:46 <dc04> Added comment E53.

15:46:28 <pshab> E:is this like the MS Office paper clip? - no, less intrusive, not polluting what's goign on the channel

15:46:29 <dc04> Added comment E54.

15:47:00 <pshab> E:there if you want it... is it more than a comfort factor for users?

15:47:01 <dc04> Added comment E55.

15:47:05 <libby__> E: re bot web service thing - I sorta did this for lightweight query routing, using very simple lists of predicates based on whois++ ideas. but won't scale as it is if there are many data sources with similar predicates available

15:47:05 <dc04> Added comment E56.

15:47:25 <pshab> E:a way for humans to interact with web srvices without writing own code...

15:47:26 <dc04> Added comment E57.

15:47:53 <pshab> E:there are examples from xforms?

15:47:54 <dc04> Added comment E58.

15:48:43 <pshab> E:more complex inputs? e.g, more complex say direction data, need two addresses.

15:48:44 <dc04> Added comment E59.

15:49:52 <pshab> E:is a problem - but does do lots, even with farily complex sercies so long as they take only a small number of inputs

15:49:53 <dc04> Added comment E60.

15:50:18 <pshab> E:there are examples of using IRC to fill in xforms...

15:50:19 <dc04> Added comment E61.

15:50:36 <pshab> E:is that useful?

15:50:37 <dc04> Added comment E62.

15:51:07 <pshab> E:compare to phone bot interfaces...

15:51:07 <dc04> Added comment E63.

15:52:12 <pshab> E:beyond basic e.g. weather --> weather tomorrow needs a more complex environment...

15:52:13 <dc04> Added comment E64.

15:52:32 <libby__> libby__ is now known as libby

15:54:19 <Talliesin> phenny tell code_poet his nick is lame

15:54:23 <pshab> E:discussion about visualisation/interaction possibilities ... with or without complex conditions

15:54:23 <dc04> Added comment E65.

15:55:12 <sbp> you need a colon, or a comma

15:55:13 <mattb> B:[deai-kei sites|http://dandoweb.com/e/singles.html] very popular in japan

15:55:13 <dc04> Added comment B27.

15:55:13 <pshab> E:need middle ground between human/machine driving

15:55:14 <dc04> Added comment E66.

15:55:27 <Talliesin> phenny, tell code_poet his nick is lame

15:55:27 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell code_poet that when they're around.

15:55:32 <Talliesin> Talliesin is now known as code_poet

15:56:06 <libby> did it work?

15:56:12 <code_poet> code_poet is now known as Talliesin

15:56:18 <pshab> E:e.g. lists + visualisation more potent than either alone

15:56:18 <dc04> Added comment E67.

15:56:33 <Talliesin> sbp, Did I get that wrong, or phenny?

15:57:04 <sbp> she's programmed only to respond to messages: if someone gets netsplit off, and rejoins, it's not worth telling them what they need to be told...

15:57:34 <libby> thanks sbp

15:57:46 <Talliesin> phenny, tell code_poet his nick is still lame

15:57:46 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell code_poet that when they're around.

15:57:59 <sbp> you're welcome, libby!

15:58:05 <pshab> E:computer is a visual --- brain dead idea that machines interact well based on human/human interactions

15:58:06 <dc04> Added comment E68.

15:58:47 <pshab> E: last comment by Ben Shneiderman

15:58:48 <dc04> Added comment E69.

15:59:51 <pshab> E:... discussion about how to do command line interactions...

15:59:52 <dc04> Added comment E70.

16:01:06 <pshab> E:... example of want for google command line (launch at least)...

16:01:06 <dc04> Added comment E71.

16:01:08 <Talliesin> Right, one more go.

16:01:25 <Talliesin> Libby, /part every channel that phenny is in and count to 100...

16:02:13 <pshab> E:mozilla can do some of that... apple has 'launchbar'(?)

16:02:14 <dc04> Added comment E72.

16:02:38 <Talliesin> phenny, tell libby phenny works

16:02:39 <phenny> Okay, I'll tell libby that when they're around.

16:02:43 <pshab> E:session move on to poster session

16:02:43 <dc04> Added comment E73.

16:03:42 * Talliesin pokes phenny in the eye

16:04:28 <Talliesin> okay, I have to reboot anyway, so I might as well be the test recipient.

16:05:18 <mattb> B:[http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/edelman/google-safesearch/|Empirical Analysis of Google SafeSearch]

16:05:18 <dc04> Added comment B28.

16:05:35 <libby> libby is now known as libby_test

16:06:15 <libby_test> libby_test is now known as libby

16:08:05 <libby> ooh, how did that happen?

16:08:32 <dajobe> you are now identified?

16:08:56 <mattb> B:general architectural point about filtering based on content labeling: where to do it?

16:08:57 <dc04> Added comment B29.

16:08:58 <golbeck> hey Jibbler !

16:09:29 <mattb> B:three basic options: on the device (phone, etc), in a proxy as part of the platform, or at the provider

16:09:29 <dc04> Added comment B30.

16:10:19 <edd> golbeck: thanks for the foafbot mentions, i guess someday i'll revive it :)

16:10:45 <golbeck> we miss it!

16:10:46 <edd> it's fundamentally flawed.

16:11:01 <golbeck> i wrote a new version of it

16:11:07 <golbeck> but haven't launched it

16:11:12 <pshab> E:discussion based on quesion about when 'documents' become so richly embeded with semantics and conditionality in display - is there a difference between a document and interfaces

16:11:12 <dc04> Added comment E74.

16:11:21 <edd> i doubt i'll ever have time to return to it, i'm afraid

16:11:34 <golbeck> maybe sometime i'll run my own

16:11:46 <golbeck> OR, some IRC Hacks reader wil implement it

16:13:23 <mattb> B:general production point: getting content labeling 'right' is very difficult from an onto/vocab point of view

16:13:24 <dc04> Added comment B31.

16:13:34 <mattb> B:especially considering different viewpoints, cultures, etc

16:13:35 <dc04> Added comment B32.

16:13:37 <mattb> B:cf music genre labeling

16:13:38 <dc04> Added comment B33.

16:14:16 <pshab> E:Nigel Shadbolt. poster... defnece funded project but on activities not concerned with war (or similar phrase) e.g. relief efforts coordination

16:14:17 <dc04> Added comment E75.

16:14:25 * mattb personally feels this to be an insoluble problem

16:14:36 <mattb> from a machine-processing p.o.v.

16:14:37 <pshab> E:integration of information in the field

16:14:38 <dc04> Added comment E76.

16:15:04 <pshab> E:... sets of view points

16:15:04 <dc04> Added comment E77.

16:15:16 <pshab> can't see the poster anyone see the title of the project?

16:15:40 <mattb> B:seems to be a general agreement that RDF is the best way forward

16:15:41 <dc04> Added comment B34.

16:15:56 <mattb> B:PICS's fixed ontologies with numerical values of 'badness' didn't work

16:15:57 <dc04> Added comment B35.

16:16:33 <pshab> E:currently info is feed in but not integrated

16:16:33 <dc04> Added comment E78.

16:16:56 <pshab> E:... need to present and swap info sources in and out quickly and meaningfully

16:16:56 <dc04> Added comment E79.

16:17:06 <libby> reminds me of my thesis this

16:17:08 <libby> sigh

16:17:27 <mattb> libby: thesis online perchance?

16:17:36 <libby> no...it's not v good

16:17:59 <libby> also it didn;t come up with any solution...except - empathy!

16:18:00 <pshab> E:need to understand the needs of different user groups etc...

16:18:00 <dc04> Added comment E80.

16:18:03 <mattb> people are the answer!

16:18:08 <mattb> if only we were better people

16:18:13 <libby> exactly

16:18:24 <pshab> E:seems to be based on AKTIVE space framework?

16:18:24 <dc04> Added comment E81.

16:18:58 <pshab> E:question - trust and provanence issues..?

16:18:58 <dc04> Added comment E82.

16:19:26 <pshab> E:interesting to see what is done now e.g. tacit processes etc.

16:19:26 <dc04> Added comment E83.

16:19:50 <mattb> B:point from Phil Archer of ICRA: "commercial filtering companies have enormous proprietary databases but this is their commercial advantage and they won't translate them into shared formats"

16:19:51 <dc04> Added comment B36.

16:20:12 <mattb> B:"also, there is a liability issue if someone else is using their data with code they didn't write"

16:20:12 <pshab> E:not just about trust, but also about how its passed up/along the chain to other stakeholders with different goals

16:20:12 <dc04> Added comment B37.

16:20:13 <dc04> Added comment E84.

16:20:44 <pshab> E:Next presentation

16:20:45 <dc04> Added comment E85.

16:22:49 <golbeck> great job logging pshab

16:23:26 <pshab> E:Greg?

16:23:27 <dc04> Added comment E86.

16:23:56 <golbeck> E86: Greg Elin

16:23:57 <dc04> Replaced comment E86.

16:24:09 <pshab> E:picturee annotation - very active area, inc. FOAF related stuff, codepiction...

16:24:10 <dc04> Added comment E87.

16:25:40 <pshab> E:[demo|http://w3photo.org/]

16:25:41 <dc04> Added comment E88.

16:26:52 <pshab> E:shows example of adding metadata into a form... and linking to rectangles over image

16:26:53 <dc04> Added comment E89.

16:27:39 <pshab> E:have defined new rdf about image regions. e.g. imageregiondepicts cna't see the syntax

16:27:39 <dc04> Added comment E90.

16:29:23 <pshab> E:[WWW pics being used to demo e.g. people |http://w3photo.org/photos/test/]

16:29:23 <dc04> Added comment E91.

16:31:11 <libby> E:[the schema shoudl be somewhere around here|http://www.bnowack.de/w3photo/]

16:31:11 <dc04> Added comment E92.

16:31:12 <pshab> E:had to deal with issue of what is the minimum elve of metadatata - originally zero but then realised need creative commons data... to allow reuse

16:31:12 <dc04> Added comment E93.

16:32:35 <golbeck> E: conference ontology is http://mindswap.org/2004/www04photo.owl

16:32:36 <dc04> Added comment E94.

16:32:57 <libby> E92:[the rdf imageregions schema should be somewhere around here|http://www.bnowack.de/w3photo/]; we have a greement for it to go on the w3 site at http://www.w3.org/2004/02/imageregions#)

16:32:58 <dc04> Replaced comment E92.

16:33:26 <libby> creative commons stuff very important I think in this case

16:33:42 <libby> also tracing who made it so can remove it if necessary

16:33:56 <pshab> E:blog model is very powerful - posting image + annotations under the image

16:33:56 <dc04> Added comment E95.

16:34:49 <pshab> E:pointing to moblog site on yafro.com

16:34:49 <dc04> Added comment E96.

16:35:29 * mattb goes to lunch

16:36:01 <pshab> E:annotated images - some with 25(ish) comments

16:36:01 <dc04> Added comment E97.

16:37:57 <pshab> E:[Example from Aktivespace photo demo|http://photo.aktivespace.org/] taking photonotes and integrating it with activespace

16:37:57 <dc04> Added comment E98.

16:39:01 <pshab> E:this looks like a cool example of conference data integration

16:39:01 <dc04> Added comment E99.

16:39:08 <pshab> E:session ends for lunch

16:39:09 <dc04> Added comment E100.

16:53:11 <bkdelong> So if anyone sees signs around for #www2004, let me know. I emailed the volunteers so hopefully they're paying attention :)

17:43:00 <bkdelong> Oooh - is anyone trying dodgeball.social while in NYC?

17:43:36 <bkdelong>http://nyc.dodgeball.com/social/

17:43:36 <dc04> F: http://nyc.dodgeball.com/social/ from bkdelong

17:45:37 <bkdelong> F: | Dodgeball.social - a mobile social network for people in the NYC area.

17:45:38 <dc04> Added comment F1.

17:45:40 <teefal> hi all, here's one....

17:45:42 <teefal>http://pacmanhattan.com/

17:45:54 <dc04> G: http://pacmanhattan.com/ from teefal

17:46:01 <golbeck> ooh...that dodgeball is cool

17:46:05 <teefal> g:PacManhattan ... play pacman as real people in greenwich village

17:46:16 <teefal> G:PacManhattan ... play pacman as real people in greenwich village

17:46:17 <dc04> Added comment G1.

17:49:21 <bkdelong> F:|Dodgeball.social NYC

17:49:21 <dc04> Titled item F.

17:53:30 <bkdelong> dajobe: You may want to put a link to the ESW Wiki WWW2004 page under Resources for the chump page.

17:53:59 <dajobe> ah, ok

17:54:33 <bkdelong> Have you seen any signs around mentioning the IRC chan yet?

17:54:41 <dajobe> no, but I was looking for somewhere to write it down

17:56:16 <bkdelong> I suggested to people earlier - the student volunteers should be able to help. I emailed Mae Issac about it but not sure if they're checking info@www2004.org

17:56:47 <bkdelong> Just find the student volunteer office and find out the scoop on either updating the front page of www2004.org or having some signs put up.

17:57:00 <dajobe> ok

17:57:07 <dajobe> I've added a wiki link to the sidebar

17:59:04 <bkdelong> Any idea when w3photo.org will be editable?

17:59:23 <dajobe> I saw greg in a workshop but didn't get a chance to ask him

18:00:40 <pshab>http://interaction.ecs.soton.ac.uk/idsw04/

18:00:40 <dc04> H: http://interaction.ecs.soton.ac.uk/idsw04/ from pshab

18:01:22 <pshab> H:|Beyond the Click: Interaction Design and the Semantic Web - Part II

18:01:23 <dc04> Titled item H.

18:02:00 <pshab> H:|WWW2004 Workshop Beyond the Click: Interaction Design and the Semantic Web - Part II

18:02:01 <dc04> Titled item H.

18:04:09 <pshab> H:Special Afternoon Session

18:04:09 <pshab> Balancing Human Control and Automation: A Tale of Two Perspectives in a Case Study and Thought Experiment of Web-based Photo Annotation.

18:04:09 <pshab> Following from the morning's presentations, Ben and Jim will situate the afternoon's discussion by presenting a communal design problem: annotating and then repurposing photos in a Semantic Web context.

18:04:10 <dc04> Added comment H1.

18:04:45 <pshab> opps. try that again

18:05:01 <pshab> H:Balancing Human Control and Automation: A Tale of Two Perspectives in a Case Study and Thought Experiment of Web-based Photo Annotation.

18:05:01 <dc04> Added comment H2.

18:05:51 <pshab> H:Lead by Web Ontologist, James Hendler and HCI Guru, Ben Shneiderman

18:05:51 <dc04> Added comment H3.

18:07:02 <pshab> H:focus on annotating and then repurposing photos in a Semantic Web context

18:07:02 <dc04> Added comment H4.

18:07:43 <mattb> B:[http://web.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~kaz/www2004/slides/ns/|The RDF Trust Model using RDF bookmark and its Application]

18:07:43 <dc04> Added comment B38.

18:07:43 <mattb> B:Nobuhisa Shiraishi about to speak

18:07:43 <dc04> Added comment B39.

18:09:15 <pshab> H:jhendler - presenting... rdf/rdfs/owl built on existing web infrastrurcture... turn that to photos...

18:09:16 <dc04> Added comment H5.

18:10:14 <pshab> H:images diff to text - text tends to feel like it can be processed to extract meaning --> a discussion for another day

18:10:14 <dc04> Added comment H6.

18:11:11 <pshab> H: but images are different - not pre-indexed, ad hoc, etc...

18:11:11 <dc04> Added comment H7.

18:12:47 <pshab> H:demo of [mindswap photos|http://www.mindswap.org/photos/] project

18:12:47 <dc04> Added comment H8.

18:12:49 <mattb> B39:Nobuhisa Shiraishi of NEC about to speak

18:12:50 <dc04> Replaced comment B39.

18:14:15 <pshab> H:use it browse info on people - links to web based data

18:14:15 <dc04> Added comment H9.

18:15:13 <pshab> H:tool is powered by the ontology

18:15:14 <dc04> Added comment H10.

18:16:26 <pshab> H:question - how do we know what will happen when we click a link

18:16:27 <dc04> Added comment H11.

18:17:19 <pshab> H:same as the Web... info about this person, etc... generates a page about the thing

18:17:19 <dc04> Added comment H12.

18:17:49 <pshab> H:if lots of info e.g. 5000 bits of info/concepts?

18:17:49 <dc04> Added comment H13.

18:18:28 <pshab> H:you need a different way of displaying it - its a different issue [to that he is talking about]

18:18:29 <dc04> Added comment H14.

18:19:44 <pshab> H:presentation - e.g. can have different presentation scripts based on how many links...

18:19:44 <dc04> Added comment H15.

18:21:06 * pshab waves to alistair

18:21:14 * alistair waves back

18:21:52 <libby> heya al

18:21:59 <alistair> hey libby

18:22:29 <pshab> H:shows example from demo - human readable lables v URIs can use either

18:22:30 <dc04> Added comment H16.

18:22:58 <pshab> H:if use a differetn ontology get different view...

18:22:59 <dc04> Added comment H17.

18:23:08 <pshab> HL

18:23:12 <pshab> opps.

18:23:55 <pshab> H:can add/use ontology - extends foaf with conf. concepts. can use any that can be parsed by Jena

18:23:55 <dc04> Added comment H18.

18:24:34 <pshab> H:demo of system, anyone know the link?

18:24:35 <dc04> Added comment H19.

18:26:23 <pshab> H:drag and drop interface, color coded... interface, drill down the ontology. Filling in values in form boxes

18:26:24 <dc04> Added comment H20.

18:27:21 <pshab> H:can create region - and annotate the region, drag the concept 'keynote speaker' into the annotation box and add metadata...

18:27:22 <dc04> Added comment H21.

18:28:35 <mattb> B:[google query using RDF bookmark|http://iggy.w3.org/shiraishi/bookmark/google+bookmark.html] demo

18:28:36 <dc04> Added comment B40.

18:29:53 <pshab> H:gives another example from mindswap of [papers|http://www.mindswap.org/papers/] - bibtex data added using same system

18:29:54 <dc04> Added comment H22.

18:30:13 <mattb> yay, the joy of wireless...

18:30:15 <mattb> presenter's MSN Messenger suddenly pops up during talk as a friend tries to chat

18:31:45 <pshab> H:could do similar (much better) in lots of areas - but usign the same infrastrucre that takes different ontologies

18:31:45 <dc04> Added comment H23.

18:33:19 <pshab> H:Ben Shneiderman asks how new data is added - e.g. adding new data to bibtex data? can addt o the form easily. But of course not populate new data for existing records...

18:33:19 <dc04> Added comment H24.

18:33:23 <pshab> H:Ben Shneiderman presenation

18:33:23 <dc04> Added comment H25.

18:33:52 <pshab> H:so why are we doing this [annotation] stuff?

18:33:53 <dc04> Added comment H26.

18:34:55 <pshab> H:showind demo - 26000 photo library, last years www conf. - makes slide show...

18:34:56 <dc04> Added comment H27.

18:35:20 <pshab> H27:showind demo - 26000 image, photo library, last years www conf. - makes slide show...

18:35:20 <dc04> Replaced comment H27.

18:35:47 <pshab> H:annotations added to query via drag and drop interface

18:35:48 <dc04> Added comment H28.

18:37:22 <pshab> H:shows query of images of him and Jim... shows import of images from today... and adds metadata e.g. people in images... can do bulk annotation...

18:37:23 <dc04> Added comment H29.

18:39:18 <pshab> H:Jim asks were the additional info of e.g. that they were eating at Lindy's ... well... discussion about [potential] adding ways of adding new data e.g. dates, diaries,...

18:39:18 <dc04> Added comment H30.

18:39:26 <bkdelong> pshab: are they demoing w3photo?

18:40:01 <bkdelong> oop. found Mindswap Photos

18:40:29 <pshab> H:also has free text search... new tools will data from GPS, image analysis e.g. colours...

18:40:29 <dc04> Added comment H31.

18:41:44 <pshab> H:What do we want to support? Jim says' everying, I don't thnk you can... [Ben] is taking... I'm not the side of control, what we know, ...

18:41:45 <dc04> Added comment H32.

18:43:21 <pshab> H:shows lots and lots of examples of all the kind of info that could be given, ... goes to very extream, e.g. temp difference when they were speaking in presentation...

18:43:22 <dc04> Added comment H33.

18:44:06 <pshab> H:Ben thinks we need to go incremental, adn then build and grow... e.g. papers, sessions, people. good place to start, but needed soem time on interface even for that...

18:44:06 <dc04> Added comment H34.

18:44:45 <bkdelong> Greg_Elin: Any idea when people can start submitting photos to w3photo?

18:44:46 <mattb> B:Eric Prud'hommeaux speaking

18:44:47 <dc04> Added comment B41.

18:44:57 <pshab> H:modest goals and incrementally grow... feedback from user... user interface drives it wiht the ontologies etc. beign importnat but secondary

18:44:57 <dc04> Added comment H35.

18:45:10 <mattb> B:[slides|http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0519-CS-RDF/] (CSS file appears to be password-protected, hence prompt - content is open)

18:45:10 <dc04> Added comment B42.

18:45:36 <pshab> H:motivated by questions/peruposes we have...

18:45:37 <dc04> Added comment H36.

18:46:34 <pshab> H:shows exampel fo photo system - with zooming interface - designed for rapid exploration...

18:46:35 <dc04> Added comment H37.

18:47:57 <golbeck> H: The software Ben is demoing is called photofinder, and available at http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/photolib/

18:47:58 <dc04> Added comment H38.

18:48:28 <pshab> H:Wendy Hall - asks about ethics of putting photos up wiht annotations...

18:48:28 <dc04> Added comment H39.

18:48:28 <golbeck> H: The sofware jim is showing is at the mindswap website http://www.mindswap.org

18:48:28 <dc04> Added comment H40.

18:48:55 <pshab> H:do get requests to be removed or aspects of them removed...

18:48:55 <dc04> Added comment H41.

18:49:07 <golbeck> H: Jim's demoed markup tools are available in the downloads section of mindswap.org

18:49:08 <dc04> Added comment H42.

18:49:51 <pshab> H:perhaps need to say this will be captured in the conference registration documentation?

18:49:51 <dc04> Added comment H43.

18:50:14 <pshab> H:interesting issue. parked.

18:50:14 <dc04> Added comment H44.

18:50:41 <pshab> H:note from audience. legal infrastructure is not keeping up - not just photos

18:50:42 <dc04> Added comment H45.

18:52:19 <pshab> H:Jim - Common aspects? drag and drop. yes. incremental? both agree grow functionality of interface...

18:52:19 <dc04> Added comment H46.

18:52:34 <pshab> H:both interested in linking, sorting, organisation based on links...

18:52:35 <dc04> Added comment H47.

18:52:41 <libby> libby is now known as libby__

18:52:44 <libby__> libby__ is now known as libby

18:53:36 <pshab> H:most difference - traditional interface adn Web - interface try to accoutn for the needs of as many users as possible. Web more open e.g. better e-books than the web but the Web is more open...

18:53:36 <dc04> Added comment H48.

18:54:34 <pshab> H:different communities need different customisation - sorting, viwing... too many needed to do it by hand so...

18:54:35 <dc04> Added comment H49.

18:55:04 <pshab> H:from audience - the properties are of people not of images

18:55:05 <dc04> Added comment H50.

18:55:08 <mattb> B:first talk to actually give examples of RDF and OWL technology applied to the rating and selection/filtering process

18:55:09 <dc04> Added comment B43.

18:55:32 <pshab> H:shouldnt' been in the interface about images(?) did I get that right?

18:55:33 <dc04> Added comment H51.

18:56:37 <pshab> H:Jim wants all the people info about the people in the image...

18:56:37 <dc04> Added comment H52.

18:57:38 <pshab> H:Jim gives example of chaning needs in indexing, e.g. have images indexed by age - now want where it was taken...

18:57:39 <dc04> Added comment H53.

18:58:34 <karlcow> Ikki Ohmukai is making a demo of Glucose

19:00:12 <pshab> H:thougth - Jim's problem here is similar to my problem when doing background work on ARKive see [dlib article|http://www.dlib.org/dlib/june02/shabajee/06shabajee.html]

19:00:13 <dc04> Added comment H54.

19:00:24 <karlcow> Glucose gives the possibility if you give keywords to query RSS search engines for you

19:01:52 <pshab> H:Ben - if you say you can ask any question...

19:01:53 <dc04> Added comment H55.

19:02:13 <mattb> B:using RDF query for this sort of selection is tricky because of closed vs open world distinctions

19:02:14 <dc04> Added comment B44.

19:02:29 <golbeck> ooh...

19:02:39 <bkdelong>http://www.blogpulse.com/www2004-workshop.html

19:02:39 <dc04> I: http://www.blogpulse.com/www2004-workshop.html from bkdelong

19:02:39 * golbeck will have to sieze that picture from Greg_Elin

19:02:48 <pshab> golbeck: ooh?

19:02:48 <bkdelong> I:|Workshop on the Weblogging Ecosystem: Aggregation, Analysis and Dynamics

19:02:49 <dc04> Titled item I.

19:03:08 <Greg_Elin> truly?

19:03:09 <libby> libby is now known as libby__

19:03:13 <Greg_Elin> I wanted to keep it!

19:03:24 <golbeck> can you upload it Greg_Elin ?

19:03:26 <bkdelong> I: [http://www.blogpulse.com/papers/www2004ohmukai.pdf |Personal Knowledge Publishing Suite with Weblog, Ikki Ohmukai & Hideaki Takeda]

19:03:26 <dc04> Added comment I1.

19:03:27 <libby__> libby__ is now known as libby

19:03:30 <golbeck> so i know how large an army to assemble?

19:03:32 <golbeck> ;)

19:03:41 <bkdelong> Which image?

19:03:42 <Greg_Elin> Network connection to server is gagging. (argh!)

19:04:00 * golbeck sees her college dorm next-room-neighbor is on the committee for the blog workshop

19:07:15 <pshab> H:... what *is* a photo feature? esp. about the content of the photo e.g. number of people? what concept space?

19:07:15 <dc04> Added comment H56.

19:07:40 <pshab> H:... there are no facts on the Sem Web - only assertions

19:07:41 <dc04> Added comment H57.

19:08:02 <Greg_Elin> ah...network back

19:08:02 <pshab> H:general agreement(?)

19:08:02 <dc04> Added comment H58.

19:09:17 <pshab> H:Jim, would like to be able to take data from one applicaion area to others. e.g. put it in an RDF database to be re-used

19:09:17 <dc04> Added comment H59.

19:10:01 <karlcow>http://www.blogpulse.com/papers/www2004linhalavais.pdf

19:10:01 <dc04> J: http://www.blogpulse.com/papers/www2004linhalavais.pdf from karlcow

19:10:21 <karlcow> J:|Mapping the Blogospere in America, Alex Halavais

19:10:22 <dc04> Titled item J.

19:10:56 <karlcow> J: and Jian Lin

19:10:56 <dc04> Added comment J1.

19:11:11 <edd> deduct 10 points for saying blogosphere ;)

19:11:21 <bkdelong> hehehehe

19:11:36 <bkdelong> Is that better or worse than Blogspace?

19:12:00 <karlcow> or BlogHole?

19:12:12 <bkdelong> headed home. Back later.

19:13:14 <pshab> H:as more sem web data ... have x hundred thousands images... need new ways of displaying that...

19:13:15 <dc04> Added comment H60.

19:13:42 <karlcow> J:What does it mean a blog lives in a city?

19:13:43 <dc04> Added comment J2.

19:14:22 <karlcow> J: Does it matter? yes. Cities still affect people, identities, social network.

19:14:23 <dc04> Added comment J3.

19:14:42 <pshab> H:... if conference badges had embeded visula data, link to other data when a photo is taken

19:14:42 <dc04> Added comment H61.

19:16:19 <pshab> H:could join data automatically...

19:16:19 <dc04> Added comment H62.

19:19:20 <pshab> H:Jim ical data + photo data from camera another example of potential automatic/semi-automatic annotation

19:19:21 <dc04> Added comment H63.

19:23:23 <pshab> H:gives example of defn. of 'year' in government stats - footnotes as long as the doc... can't just join data on 'year'. Doign it automatically gets you in to trouble...

19:23:24 <dc04> Added comment H64.

19:23:40 <karlcow> J: karlcow, hmmm... he's showing data for US, not for America...

19:23:41 <dc04> Added comment J4.

19:27:05 <pshab> H64:Ben gives example of defn. of 'year' in government stats - footnotes as long as the doc... can't just join data on 'year'. Doign it automatically gets you in to trouble...

19:27:06 <dc04> Replaced comment H64.

19:28:28 <karlcow> J: He has decided to limit his data to US, for a lack of resources, but once the process will be formalized, it might be easy to extend to other countries and languages.

19:28:29 <dc04> Added comment J5.

19:28:53 <karlcow> J:Ikki Ohmukai is making a demo of Glucose

19:28:53 <dc04> Added comment J6.

19:28:56 <dajobe> Greg_Elin: when will we be seeing w3photo site updates?

19:29:12 <karlcow> J:Glucose gives the possibility if you give keywords to query RSS search engines for you

19:29:13 <dc04> Added comment J7.

19:29:59 <pshab> H:break for coffee.

19:30:00 <dc04> Added comment H65.

19:30:09 <karlcow> J: oops the two sentences above are for [http://www2004.xmlhack.com/2004/05/18/2004-05-18.html#2004-05-18%2019:02|The other entry]

19:30:09 <dc04> Added comment J8.

19:30:25 <pshab> H:Ben notes that photofinder is free to download

19:30:26 <dc04> Added comment H66.

19:30:34 <dajobe> karlcow: you can edit things with say J8:newcomment or J8:"" to delete it

19:31:24 <karlcow> J8:""

19:31:25 <dc04> Deleted comment J8.

19:31:28 <karlcow> J9:""

19:31:29 <dc04> Comment J9 not found.

19:31:38 <karlcow> thanks dajobe? I had forgotten that

19:32:04 <karlcow> H:Ikki Ohmukai is making a demo of Glucose

19:32:04 <dc04> Added comment H67.

19:32:14 <karlcow> H67:""

19:32:15 <dc04> Deleted comment H67.

19:32:24 <karlcow> I:Ikki Ohmukai is making a demo of Glucose

19:32:25 <dc04> Added comment I2.

19:32:41 <karlcow> hmmm I might be tired

19:32:46 <karlcow> I:Glucose gives the possibility if you give keywords to query RSS search engines for you

19:32:47 <dc04> Added comment I3.

19:32:57 <karlcow> or it is the martini yesterday

19:33:17 <karlcow> J8:""

19:33:18 <dc04> Comment J8 not found.

19:33:22 <karlcow> J7:""

19:33:23 <dc04> Deleted comment J7.

19:33:36 <karlcow> J6:""

19:33:36 <dc04> Deleted comment J6.

19:33:48 <karlcow> ah clean now

19:50:31 <_adam_laptop> _adam_laptop is now known as adamhill

20:06:04 <karlcow>http://www.blogpulse.com/papers/www2004gumbrecht.pdf

20:06:05 <mattb> B:[Rachel Yould|http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22rachel+yould%22&btnG=Google+Search] now speaking on socio-cultural issues

20:06:05 <dc04> K: http://www.blogpulse.com/papers/www2004gumbrecht.pdf from karlcow

20:06:06 <dc04> Added comment B45.

20:06:21 <karlcow> K:|Blogs as "Protected Space", Michelle Gumbrecht

20:06:22 <dc04> Titled item K.

20:09:53 <karlcow> K:23 bloggers only

20:09:53 <dc04> Added comment K1.

20:10:23 <pshab>http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/05-18-Steven-WWW2004-SemWeb/

20:10:24 <dc04> L: http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/05-18-Steven-WWW2004-SemWeb/ from pshab

20:11:49 <pshab> L:|Interaction Design and the Semantic Web - XForms and the Semantic Web by Steven Pemberton

20:11:49 <dc04> Titled item L.

20:12:12 * edd applauds Steven from afar

20:13:26 <DanC> L:wish I were there

20:13:27 <dc04> Added comment L1.

20:14:14 <pshab> L:demoing xforms examples - follow links in presentation

20:14:15 <dc04> Added comment L2.

20:14:33 <pshab> L:FOAF and Google

20:14:34 <dc04> Added comment L3.

20:18:32 <pshab> L2:demoing xforms examples - follow links in [presentation:http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/05-18-Steven-WWW2004-SemWeb/]

20:18:33 <dc04> Replaced comment L2.

20:20:48 <karlcow> K: karlcow: I have the feeling that the conclusion are a bit too cultural centric

20:20:49 <dc04> Added comment K2.

20:21:20 <pshab> L2:demoing xforms examples - follow links in [presentation|http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/05-18-Steven-WWW2004-SemWeb/]

20:21:20 <dc04> Replaced comment L2.

20:25:35 <mattb>http://www.w3.org/2004/05/18-atom-nyc

20:25:35 <dc04> M: http://www.w3.org/2004/05/18-atom-nyc from mattb

20:25:45 <mattb> M:|Minutes from Atom discussion, New York City, 18 May 2004, 18 May 04

20:25:46 <dc04> Titled item M.

20:26:16 <mattb> M:|Minutes from Atom discussion, New York City, 18 May 2004

20:26:17 <dc04> Titled item M.

20:26:23 * mattb wonders what's up with the title on that page

20:28:37 <dajobe> yeah, s/telcon.*/

20:42:30 <pshab>http://museosuomi.cs.helsinki.fi/

20:42:31 <dc04> N: http://museosuomi.cs.helsinki.fi/ from pshab

20:43:03 <pshab> N:|interesting faceted browser from museum domain

20:43:03 <dc04> Titled item N.

20:43:35 <karlcow>http://lyceum.ibiblio.org/

20:43:35 <dc04> O: http://lyceum.ibiblio.org/ from karlcow

20:43:49 <karlcow> O:|Enabling Open Source Blogspheres

20:43:50 <dc04> Titled item O.

20:56:28 <DanC> er... 'sup tonight?

20:57:24 <mattb> DanC: you done for the day?

21:02:21 <DanC> not yet, but we're getting there.

21:03:03 <DanC> I'm now done with my major presentation, so I don't need to stay in my hotel room saying to myself "I can't go out because I should be working on my presentation"

21:03:29 <jon-k> <g>

21:07:27 <pshab>http://earth.esa.int/isc/

21:07:34 <dc04> P: http://earth.esa.int/isc/ from pshab

21:09:35 <pshab> P:|Example of browser for geographic sem web data - mentioned in discussion in Interaction design session

21:09:36 <dc04> Titled item P.

21:19:55 <teefal> dan, that is exactly where i am

21:20:03 <teefal> i should be working ... but...

21:21:05 * jhendler will relax when the corrected Dev Day schedule is published

21:21:29 <jhendler>http://trust.mindswap.org/DevDay/

21:21:29 <dc04> Q: http://trust.mindswap.org/DevDay/ from jhendler

21:21:44 <jhendler> Q:| Developers Day inf

21:21:44 <dc04> Titled item Q.

21:21:53 <jhendler> Q:| Developers' Day info

21:21:53 <dc04> Titled item Q.

21:21:55 <dajobe> that url's the one I linked from the www2004.xmlhack.com site

21:22:37 <jhendler> apologies - I missed the link

21:22:50 <jhendler> Q: schedule in the conference program is wrong - be sure to check here instead

21:22:51 <dc04> Added comment Q1.

21:23:52 <mattb> jhendler: no schedule for Rules On The Web track?

21:24:21 <jhendler> Ben says he sent it to Jen, she didn't get it - they're working on it

21:24:39 <golbeck> yes. i want to put it up

21:24:43 * golbeck has just today changed her spam filter

21:29:04 <teefal> in new york, you can throw a paper airplane out your window and it will hit a good restaurant

21:29:43 <teefal> or a camera shop

21:29:54 <StevenP> But is it a reliable method?

21:30:19 <teefal> depends on the winds

21:30:38 <teefal> if it lands on one of them street vendors selling "mystery meat on a stick", then no

21:30:52 <mattb> do they do tofudogs here?

21:30:57 <mattb> they do in toronto

21:31:06 <mattb> mystery soya on a stick

21:31:13 * golbeck has never seen a tofudog

21:31:18 <golbeck> i'm not sure i'd eat one anyway

21:31:18 <teefal> for healthy folk, there's a great cheap place in times square (believe it or not)

21:31:21 <golbeck> :)

21:31:22 <teefal> cafe europa

21:31:23 <bkdelong> Is that like tofurky?

21:31:33 <teefal> great salads

21:31:45 <teefal> pick your ingredients and they mix nicely

21:31:47 <golbeck> my favorite is Fakeon - like bacon, only better :)

21:31:52 <teefal> also pressed cuban sandwiches

21:32:00 <teefal> and smoothies

21:32:25 <bkdelong> Jen - you need to push your food-preference/vegetarian schema on the FOAF community ;)

21:32:36 <bkdelong> So Veggies can find other Veggies :D

21:33:59 <danbri__> yes please

21:34:13 <bkdelong> yes please to what, danbri__ ?

21:34:28 <golbeck> i convinced our whole workshop to go to the zen palate for group dinner

21:34:29 <teefal> best way to make someone a veggie.... have them see "super size me", which we saw in times square last night

21:34:32 <golbeck> i consider that a big win!

21:34:44 <danbri__> to veggie vocab being more widely used

21:34:44 <bkdelong> hehehe

21:34:45 <golbeck> OHH, teefal i LOVED that movie!

21:34:53 <libby> B:[swig mission|http://www.w3.org/2003/12/swa/swig-charter.html#Mission]

21:34:54 <dc04> Added comment B46.

21:35:06 <bkdelong> I'll add it to the FOAF Wiki then

21:35:10 <teefal> one of the mcdonalds in the movie was right next to where we saw it

21:35:16 <teefal> they had "super size" on the menu

21:35:16 <bkdelong> Did you or Libby FOAFlog it?

21:37:20 <jon-k> there's always Radost FX in Prague! An amazingly eclectic vegetarian rest.

21:37:28 <jon-k> short hop...

21:43:16 <bkdelong> Updated: http://rdfweb.org/topic/FoafExtensions

21:43:56 <bkdelong> danbri__: the RSS feed for RecentChanges at rdfweb.org is still giving errors. :(

21:44:12 <dajobe> ... winding up here for the day...

21:44:27 <danbri__> makes sense ('cos it's still borken).

21:44:55 <teefal> does anyone know zen palace time?

21:44:57 <danbri__> i'm knee deep in weblog pieces currently (wordpress migration...)

21:45:09 <bkdelong> gotcha.

21:51:29 <bkdelong> Dropping like flies.

21:58:50 <teefal> fyi to all.... best breakfast i have had in a long time .... in the village, elephant and castle

21:59:09 <teefal> 68 greenwich

21:59:25 <teefal> healthy, yummy, interesting mixture of ingredients

22:00:01 <teefal> lindy's next door is also very good, from completely opposite direction

22:00:09 <teefal> pastrami omelette, for instance

22:00:30 <bkdelong> Shouldn't we be using this? http://esw.w3.org/topic/RestaurantRecommendation

22:00:36 <bkdelong> ;)

22:27:11 * DanC packs up...

22:31:30 <bkdelong>http://www.w3.org/2004/05/18-atom-nyc

22:31:30 <dc04> R: http://www.w3.org/2004/05/18-atom-nyc from bkdelong

22:31:43 <bkdelong> R:|W3C Atom Meeting Minutes

22:31:43 <dc04> Titled item R.

23:42:28 <DanC-AIM> ZZ:

23:42:28 <dc04> Label ZZ not found.

23:44:54 <edd> heh, R: was the last :)

23:45:23 <DanC-AIM> zz is a way of pinging, ala "is this thing on?K

23:45:25 <DanC-AIM> "

23:47:20 <edd> dc04: foo

23:47:21 * dc04 falls down a well.

23:47:24 <edd> that's my way :)

23:50:44 <bkdelong> PONG