WWW2004 conference IRC Chat Logs for 2004-05-19

10:47:22 <adamhill> adamhill is now known as _dreaminofjeanni

11:22:06 <dajobe-ibook> dajobe-ibook is now known as dajobe

11:41:29 <teefal> good morning everyo9ne

11:42:02 <teefal> libby and i were talking about a game that could get people interested in w3photo and codepictions at the conference

11:42:14 <teefal> i am working on web app functionality right now

11:42:30 <teefal> we decided it should:

11:42:31 <teefal> 1. be fun

11:42:45 <teefal> 2. get people to annotate photos

11:42:58 <teefal> 3. get people to seek out less vocal participants somehow

11:43:08 <teefal> 4. interconnect by region/discipline

11:43:18 <teefal> etc

11:43:30 <teefal> how about this....

11:43:38 <teefal> conference bingo

11:43:50 <teefal> you sign up, perhaps upload your foaf

11:44:02 <teefal> you get a bingo card (on the website)

11:44:26 <teefal> the card has a random collection of tags (people,places,project areas)

11:44:58 <teefal> to win a bingo spot, you must either have a photo of yourself with a person

11:45:14 <teefal> or a photo with a person from that place or working in that area

11:45:21 <teefal> (discipline)

11:45:40 <teefal> i am still half asleep, so rules are not clear

11:45:56 <teefal> some thoughts... 1) you cannot restart a bingo card easily (once a day?)

11:46:12 <teefal> 2) there should be some way of winning a spot other than codepiction in photos

11:46:24 <teefal> somehow proving a connection to that person

11:46:46 <teefal> anyway, if it's simple enough we can probably do this before long

11:46:52 <teefal> on our own web app

11:46:57 <teefal> any interest?

11:48:26 <danbri__> hi teefal

11:49:24 <danbri__> yes, something in that vein sounds good. I told you about our moblog and isy-style games? let me find the mlblog logs... it might have some examples we could use for a howto...

11:49:41 <danbri__> we tried with random, and non-random, list

11:49:46 <teefal> hi danbri

11:50:07 <teefal> we already have tidepool doing who/what/where/when tags, with icons for each

11:50:16 <teefal> these would look good on bingo board

11:50:23 <danbri__> yep

11:50:32 * danbri__ rummages around near http://moblog.nicecupoftea.org/archives/2004_03.html

11:51:04 <teefal> dan, yes, the i-spy stuff is cool

11:51:05 <danbri__> Game can give sense of 'glimpse into other ppls lives' too...

11:51:23 <teefal> libby and i were talking about the "wallflowers"... the non-hubs

11:51:39 <teefal> having someone blocking your bingo board may be good motivation to talk to them :)

11:52:02 <danbri__> (and be a nice memory-jog, he says, scrolling past pics he took in Tel Aviv and West Bank... wow)

11:52:10 <danbri__> yes, good point

11:52:12 <teefal> the idea is to fight the power law ... get the hubs evened out

11:52:33 <teefal> i want a better name than "conference bingo" though

11:52:42 <danbri__> I wouldn't want to turn this into hunt-the-celeb

11:52:45 <teefal> ... foaf bingo ... bio bingo ...

11:53:00 <teefal> but perhaps "hunt-the-obscure"

11:53:42 <teefal> for some reason, i keep thinking of "beach blanket bingo"

11:53:52 <teefal> not sure why :)

11:53:58 * danbri__ wonders about post-bingo scoring... who got the most imaginiative/artistic/..... picture of a Fox/Truck/XML Expert, ...

11:54:05 <teefal> something with that rhythm would be good

11:54:05 <danbri__> hi shellac

11:54:15 <shellac> ahoy-hoy

11:54:24 * danbri__ assumes 'bingo' isn't trademark

11:55:30 <danbri__> BTW I have a general name for FOAF game stuff: "The Great Outdoors" to emphasise games that are wrapped around real-life...

11:55:57 <danbri__> bbbbingo hmm. buddy bingo. bloody buddy bingo, for the fight-club version.

11:56:24 <teefal> :)

11:56:36 <teefal> yes, that's the rhythm

11:57:17 <teefal> ah hell, if bingo is a trademark, it'll give my IP something to do :)

11:57:29 <teefal> IP = IP lawyer

11:58:25 <teefal> the rules are important here

11:58:28 <teefal> they must be simple

11:58:31 * shellac wonders what he's walked into. bingo?

11:58:32 <teefal> and fixed, once we start

11:58:41 <danbri__> LingoBingo: moblog audio clips of foreigners translating words

11:58:47 <danbri__> hmm google has some for that already

11:59:27 <teefal> also, this must be super simple

11:59:34 <teefal> for us to do it today/tomorrow

11:59:50 <shellac> using innocent tourists and immigrants to build a translation database?

12:00:32 <shellac> I'm shocked ... well, not that shocked

12:02:07 <teefal> going downstairs now

12:02:18 <danbri__> just thinking out loud :)

12:02:41 <shellac> 'thinking outside the box' eh? ;-)

12:03:07 <danbri__> bring me your preconceptions so I can think beyond them!

12:03:21 * danbri__ does some mental situps

12:03:25 * danbri__ has a sit down

12:04:00 <shellac> exploitation is an ugly word for it - how about 'expoliting ambient translation units'?

12:04:04 <MacIntyre> So anyone see signs yet for the IRC channel or Chump logs?

12:05:20 <shellac> signs?

12:06:08 <MacIntyre> At the conference.....there was a discussion on publicizing the chan

12:06:11 <dajobe> I saw a big sigil in a corn field

12:06:30 <MacIntyre> Hehehe

12:06:33 <MacIntyre> MacIntyre is now known as bkdelong

12:06:41 <dajobe> now that was an apalling movie

12:06:56 <bkdelong> Well, his next one is coming out - The Village

12:16:31 <dajobe> breakfast...

12:57:07 <pshab>http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0519-tbl-keynote/

12:57:08 <dc04> A: http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0519-tbl-keynote/ from pshab

12:57:23 <pshab> A:|WWW2004 Keynote

12:57:23 <pshab> by Tim Berners-Lee

12:57:23 <dc04> Titled item A.

12:57:49 * dajobe waves from the keynote

12:57:53 <pshab> A:Tim Berners-Lee

12:57:53 <dc04> Added comment A1.

13:00:21 <dajobe> well, at this point we decide whether to do live transcription

13:00:26 <edd> please :)

13:00:49 <dajobe> loggerw: chump A:

13:00:49 <dajobe> A:See [http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/www2004/2004-05-19#T13-00-49|discussion]

13:00:49 <bkdelong> Yes please

13:00:50 <dc04> Added comment A2.

13:01:08 <dajobe> okay, it's 90 mins so no guarantees for lasting that long

13:01:21 <bkdelong> Take turns?

13:01:30 <Jimbo_> Jimbo_ is now known as FransW

13:01:40 <dajobe> anyone here a conf volunteer? we were looking to advertise this channel

13:01:41 <bkdelong> 3 people log for 30min each?

13:01:57 <dajobe> there'll be a bunch of intros before the keynote starts

13:02:32 <bkdelong> I never heard back from Mae....but someone may want to just go up and poke them like danbri__ or libby ;) C'mon! Social engeering :)

13:03:01 * mortenf notes that slide 27 and 28 are 404

13:03:14 <libby> eh?

13:03:39 <pshab> are we going to make notes comments to the chump entry?

13:03:43 <danbri__> mae?

13:03:53 <shellac> mortenf: yes - looks like the keynote might end early :-)

13:03:57 <libby> A:+[http://moblog.nicecupoftea.org/archives/images/default/2004-05-19_135531_11854_0.jpg|picture]

13:03:58 <dc04> Added comment A3.

13:04:10 <mortenf> heh

13:04:25 <bkdelong> I believe Mae was listed on www2004.org as handling info@www2004.org email and volunteer requests

13:04:45 <bkdelong> Closest I could come to finding the volunteers sans being on-site :D

13:05:42 <dajobe> heyho

13:05:45 <dajobe> session starts

13:05:54 <dajobe> Bob and Paul Hopgood made the svg/music intro

13:06:34 <dajobe> people from 45 countries

13:07:02 <dajobe> didn't catch his name - Alan ?

13:07:49 <dajobe> just saying thanks to the people organising, and welcome

13:08:32 <dajobe> intro John White, dir & CEO of ACM

13:09:07 <dajobe> (Allan Ellis, chair of IW3C2)

13:09:33 <dajobe> ACM loves the conference [I'm paraphrasing]

13:10:30 <dajobe> ACM intro and overview

13:11:36 <dajobe> promotes Queue (?) publication

13:11:50 <bkdelong> Que, probably

13:12:42 <dajobe> JW - thanks, join ACM or stay a member if you are already :)

13:12:53 <pshab>http://www.acmqueue.org/

13:12:53 <dc04> B: http://www.acmqueue.org/ from pshab

13:13:03 <dajobe> Mike ? (conference chair?)

13:13:22 <pshab> B:|ACM Queue publication

13:13:23 <bkdelong> Mike Uretsky - NYU - conference co-chair

13:13:23 <dc04> Titled item B.

13:13:30 <dajobe> mention of 2001-11-09

13:13:32 <danbri__> "9/11 was a wake up call, inc from a technical point of view...

13:13:45 * danbri__ scribes from bristol uk ;)

13:13:55 * danbri__ thanks libby for the audio stream

13:13:59 <libby> :)

13:14:22 <dajobe> over to Gino Metrick?

13:14:29 <dajobe> representing the Mayor

13:14:44 <dajobe> has a big procolation in his hand, blue

13:14:57 <pshab> danbri - audio stream?

13:14:57 <dajobe> saw him this morning

13:15:01 <dajobe> (excuses, excuses)

13:15:05 <dajobe> but could not be here

13:15:18 <bkdelong> pshab - mobile

13:15:22 <dajobe> making NY and govt accessible

13:15:42 <dajobe> web is an important cylinder in the engine of NY

13:15:55 <bkdelong> A: [http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~muretsky/| WWW2004 Co-Chair Mike Uretsky's Web site]

13:15:56 <dc04> Added comment A4.

13:16:06 <danbri__> audio... ichat av on Mac

13:16:08 <dajobe> mentions www.nyc.gov

13:16:26 <dajobe> hey, they have a tel number too 311

13:16:37 <dajobe> not 311.ny.us.mobi :)

13:16:59 <dajobe> he opens the big blue procolamation

13:17:02 <bkdelong> dajobe - Gino Menchini, commissioner of the Department of Information Technology and Telecommunications

13:17:04 <dajobe> signed this morning

13:17:15 <dajobe> he reads from it

13:17:41 <libby> no way! today is WWW day

13:17:43 <dajobe> and proclaims this World Wide Web Day for NY

13:17:44 <libby> in NY

13:17:47 <libby> heh

13:17:48 <mattb> is that online somewhere?

13:18:03 <dajobe> try www.nyc.gov :)

13:18:20 <dajobe> over to Stu Veldman, conf co-chair

13:18:45 <dajobe> anniversairies, 15th of the web

13:18:48 <dajobe> 10th of the conf

13:18:54 <danbri__> Feldman, I think

13:19:02 <dajobe> IBM, noticed it's the 10th of IBM.com

13:19:16 <dajobe> thanks, welcome, into to timbl

13:19:46 <dajobe> his openings are one of the "most looked forward to bits of the conf"

13:19:51 <dajobe> TimBL takes the podium

13:20:06 <dajobe> blue shirt, kakhi tpants/trousers if you care :)

13:20:14 <bkdelong> Yes, it's Stuart Feldman - IBM

13:20:28 <dajobe> lots of pictures being taken, 5 points to first picture on the web

13:20:39 <bkdelong> 10 to chump it ;)

13:20:39 <dajobe> WWW2004 keynote

13:20:45 * edd wonders how he can see timbl's pants

13:20:46 <dajobe> Celebrations and challenges slide 1

13:20:55 <shellac> libby's already done one, hasn't she?

13:21:01 <dajobe> lotta semweb stuff happening, quoted in the press

13:21:17 <dajobe> timbl - I am between you and interesting part of the programm

13:21:22 <dajobe> think it'll be a great prog

13:21:27 <dajobe> great conf

13:21:33 <dajobe> timbl, have o put something about semweb in

13:21:47 <dajobe> other things, will talk about some new topics re top level domains (TLDs)

13:21:50 <mattb>http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0519-tbl-keynote/

13:21:50 <dc04> C: http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0519-tbl-keynote/ from mattb

13:21:51 <dajobe> proposals for in the DNS

13:21:54 <DanC> . http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0519-tbl-keynote/ (chumped already, surely?)

13:21:57 <mattb> C:|TimBL Keynote slides

13:21:57 <dc04> Titled item C.

13:22:05 <mattb> gah

13:22:06 <shellac> do they still 404?

13:22:06 <dajobe> looking after th web, and putshing it forward

13:22:09 <dajobe> seeing what will break

13:22:11 <mattb> danc: yes, chumped already :)

13:22:17 <dajobe> shellac: he may not cvs commit it till after he speaks

13:22:21 <DanC> C:|Celebrations and Challenges, TimBL speaks to WWW2004

13:22:21 <dc04> Titled item C.

13:22:24 <dajobe> new forms of analysis and processing

13:22:26 <mattb> they are there now

13:22:36 <dajobe> will tcp/ip still run, dns

13:22:44 <dajobe> we use the dns as part of URIs and generally forget about it

13:22:53 <dajobe> but in fact the management of the dns is importnat to the web

13:23:01 <dajobe> some new domain names

13:23:05 <shellac> mattb: slides 27 onwards, I mean

13:23:06 <dajobe> bring up some other web arch issues

13:23:09 <dajobe> slide 2

13:23:17 <mattb> shellac: oh, ok

13:23:21 * mattb comes in late, stumbles about a bit

13:23:25 <dajobe> computers have numbers, more handy to have names

13:23:40 <dajobe> timbl outlines slide2

13:24:03 <dajobe> tree structred info distributed across th enet

13:24:11 <dajobe> socially,when the web came out

13:24:16 <dajobe> it became commercially intersted

13:24:33 <dajobe> shorter names became valuable

13:24:45 <dajobe> on the web, there are unlimited qualities such as the number of URIs

13:24:55 <dajobe> unbounded creativity for web content

13:25:06 <dajobe> the web is completely distributed

13:25:21 <dajobe> everything can grow

13:25:22 <DanC> TBL: short domain names are one of the few limited [scarce] resources in the web

13:25:22 <dc04> Label TBL not found.

13:25:24 <dajobe> except for the domain anem

13:26:02 <bkdelong> name

13:26:05 <dajobe> icann

13:26:16 <dajobe> hype and interest in .biz and .info

13:26:33 <dajobe> got email for his domains, to buy for his .com sites etc.

13:26:41 <dajobe> and you typically had to buy them to reduce confusion

13:26:50 <dajobe> but timbl does not know anyone using .biz or .info

13:26:57 <dajobe> lots of domains bought, expense

13:27:18 <dajobe> the TLD thing here isn't really working

13:27:18 <dajobe> concerned about the 9 new ones

13:27:18 <dajobe> slide 3

13:27:23 <dajobe> used to www and com as punctuation of a brandname

13:27:30 <dajobe> if you wanted to start a travel agent

13:27:42 <dajobe> much more likely to get ww.jones-travel.com rather than jones.travel

13:27:51 <dajobe> they onjy have to remember jones-travel rather than the www and .com

13:28:08 <dajobe> so when people are looking for global brands, it is actually a flat space

13:28:15 <dajobe> despite people wanting it to be a tree

13:28:17 <dajobe> and being at the top

13:28:40 <dajobe> pressure as a samll company or a family, to add all the TLDs for your site

13:28:58 <dajobe> new TLDs, valuable

13:28:58 <dajobe> like printing money

13:29:03 <dajobe> and like that, it devalues the money already printed

13:29:21 <libby> what a nice analogy

13:29:22 <dajobe> you sell somebody example.com and they now need

13:29:27 <dajobe> to get example.mobi

13:29:35 <dajobe> the value of .com has been devalued

13:29:40 <dajobe> slide 4

13:30:01 <dajobe> timbl - there are some valuable reasosn to get a new domain

13:30:05 <dajobe> something like numbering new things like telephones

13:30:22 <dajobe> or socially, such as adding a .persistance such as 2004.persistence

13:30:34 <dajobe> and nobody ccould quarrel about it afterwards, all content ther would never change

13:30:40 <dajobe> that would be a totally different part of the web

13:30:44 <dajobe> and interesting

13:30:54 <dajobe> so not against new TLDs

13:30:58 <dajobe> slide 4 points

13:31:12 <dajobe> slide 5

13:31:16 <dajobe> XXX

13:31:28 <dajobe> the theory is that all the nasty stuff would be at .xxx

13:31:36 <dajobe> and we've been here before, pics

13:31:55 <dajobe> did it a way that did not involve 1 central control

13:32:00 <dajobe> at tha ttime, would have been DC, USA

13:32:15 <dajobe> since standards vary across sthe world, countries, people

13:32:19 <dajobe> and different groups

13:32:28 <dajobe> fundamental social problems divinding web content up in the .xxx way

13:32:39 <dajobe> other tech such as filtering

13:32:50 <dajobe> we have alternatives

13:33:12 <dajobe> socially this is webby - decentralised

13:33:28 <dajobe> ref to metadata for mobile content, link to be added

13:33:30 <dajobe> slide 6

13:33:34 <dajobe> .mobi

13:33:56 <dajobe> his understanding of the reasons for .mobi

13:34:14 <dajobe> yes to content good for mobiles

13:34:24 <dajobe> but no to needing new URIs for this necessarily

13:34:30 <dajobe> this is dividing the web up

13:35:02 <dajobe> you can brand content without a new TLD

13:35:02 <dajobe> slide 7

13:35:38 <dajobe> recap of the web features

13:35:47 <dajobe> for universality

13:36:10 <dajobe> here we are, first one

13:36:13 <bkdelong> (Me thinks the channel info is travelling virally)

13:36:13 <dajobe> independent of hardward

13:36:16 <dajobe> and .mobi breaking it

13:36:25 <dajobe> slde 8

13:36:31 <bkdelong> (Beaming palms or SMS messaging?)

13:36:32 <dajobe> it actually breaks the web

13:36:36 <dajobe> it=.mobi

13:36:47 <dajobe> if you bookmark on a mobile to a .mobi site

13:36:53 <dajobe> then sync to laptop, reuse the content

13:37:08 <sbp> (Or libby chatting on IRC)

13:37:08 <dajobe> then it might break, .mobi content not good for a big screen

13:37:14 <dajobe> do we have two uris for .mobi for mobiles, ones for the rest

13:37:40 <dajobe> timbl describes that mobile is not well defined

13:37:52 <dajobe> [similary, I have problem with "on the web"]

13:38:03 <dajobe> slide9

13:38:12 <dajobe> techniques for DI

13:38:27 <dajobe> looking at the conf proceeds, lots of great stuff, xml, semweb etc.

13:38:35 <dajobe> not very much about graphics this time

13:38:43 <pshab> DI= device indepencence

13:38:44 <dajobe> lots happening with voice, multi-model

13:39:02 * DanC wishes for a picture showing how many people are in the room

13:39:06 <dajobe> dealng with access to info in conversational mode, switching modes such as to video

13:39:07 <kandinski> anyone taking notes the subethaedit way?

13:39:16 <kandinski> or is this channel the actual notetaking?

13:39:22 <dajobe> [not everyone has a mac]

13:39:25 * kandinski is keeping logs anyway

13:39:28 <dajobe> separting form and content

13:39:35 <mattb> kandinski: see http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/www2004/2004-05-19#T13-00-49

13:39:58 <kandinski> [I don't either. and sorry for interjecting]

13:40:19 <libby> odd music going on?

13:40:26 <dajobe> ceelbrate somet hings, important to

13:40:53 <dajobe> CSS - great benefits from it

13:41:09 <dajobe> slap on a style sheet and suddenlty it looks much more better, more authority

13:41:10 <dajobe> [lol]

13:41:16 <dajobe> slide10

13:41:44 <dajobe> branding sites that a re mobile accessible

13:41:45 <dajobe> slide 11

13:41:52 <dajobe> segway to talking about semweb

13:42:00 <dajobe> from user orientated things

13:42:13 <dajobe> on extremes of separing form and content

13:42:15 <dajobe> the content as semweb data, say

13:42:22 <dajobe> maximsing the diversity of the devices

13:42:29 <dajobe> ship the weather info as rdf, very few bits

13:42:49 <dajobe> then using other formats with differnet features for the different devices

13:43:07 <dajobe> powerful graphics graphics layer - say svg

13:43:14 <dajobe> powerful data layer - rdf, owl

13:43:26 <dajobe> points to Haystack user interface work

13:43:37 <dajobe> which has all the style info in RDF

13:43:48 <dajobe> [there was dicussion of this yesterday here in this channel]

13:44:00 <dajobe> adapting to user's viewing needs

13:44:01 <dajobe> slide 12

13:44:06 <dajobe> semantic web browser

13:44:07 <pshab> [it was in the interaction design adn sem web workshop]

13:44:08 <dajobe> a challenge

13:44:35 <dajobe> originally said that hypertext browser was the browser

13:44:42 <dajobe> and semweb data was hooked into other apps

13:44:48 <mattb> foaf on this slide

13:44:52 <dajobe> but now a semweb browser has become more powerful

13:44:54 <dajobe> and itneresting

13:45:01 <dajobe> for data browsing

13:45:03 <bkdelong> A: [http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/| Haystack Project at MIT]

13:45:04 <dc04> Added comment A5.

13:45:11 <dajobe> at no point do you want to look at the whole web

13:45:14 <libby>http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/photos/2004/05/18/

13:45:15 <dc04> D: http://swordfish.rdfweb.org/photos/2004/05/18/ from libby

13:45:16 <pshab> 4 degrees of user contol?

13:45:18 <dajobe> so you need to have controles

13:45:34 <dajobe> such as, where data came from

13:45:36 <libby> D:|A few photos from Tuesday at WWW2004

13:45:37 <dc04> Titled item D.

13:45:40 <dajobe> types of data, particular types or ontologies

13:45:48 <dajobe> lots of differnet views of the data

13:45:59 <dajobe> for e.g. for person there are business cards, mugshots, family trees etc.

13:46:07 <dajobe> and thenc ontrol of how the browsing is show

13:46:07 <dajobe> n

13:46:33 <dajobe> fields, person central to a family tree style graph, (nodes and arcs)

13:46:38 <dajobe> you also need to scope the depth, breadth of data shown

13:46:42 <dajobe> there are net SVG things

13:46:48 <dajobe> FOAF

13:46:55 <bkdelong> (Is anyone prepared to take over for dajobe should he need a break?)

13:46:58 <dajobe> s/net/neat/

13:47:18 <dajobe> timbl Q: is there a relationship between a meeting and it's poster?

13:47:29 <edd> dajobe is a peerless scribe

13:47:48 <bkdelong> hehehehe

13:47:48 <dajobe> the data publisher might have a feeling that they want to style how the data looks

13:47:48 <dajobe> like they do on the web

13:47:55 <dajobe> compare to publishing in PDF, total control

13:48:17 <dajobe> style might also come from, in the semweb, the ontology author

13:48:38 <dajobe> giving hints on the ways to show the data in the vocabulary in the ontology

13:48:50 <dajobe> generic infor that might only need to be stated once per ontology

13:48:59 <dajobe> however, the user is also in control of style

13:49:09 <dajobe> cites Ted Nelson

13:49:15 <dajobe> writer vs reader control over the words

13:49:23 <dajobe> the reader can always throw the book away

13:49:38 <dajobe> so.. the user can override [ref to CSS properties I guess]

13:49:52 <dajobe> [still on slide 12]

13:50:01 <dajobe> challenge

13:50:18 <dajobe> - by the way, I want them done!

13:50:26 <dajobe> [let's get tim to make URIs for them :) ]

13:50:29 <dajobe> slide 13

13:50:36 <dajobe> semweb phase1

13:50:48 <dajobe> some argumetns solved, some still going on :)

13:50:51 <dajobe> lots of persuasions

13:50:53 <edd> [administravia: somebody ought to let lilo of freenode know this channel exists: they have restrictions on connections per subnet]

13:51:19 <dajobe> pieces - pretty good foundations for the semweb

13:51:24 <dajobe> bits to remove later - yes

13:51:32 <dajobe> such as PIs in XML, bags in RDF

13:51:34 <pshab> [challenge = Extensible open framework for semantic web browser]

13:51:34 <bkdelong> [Yeah, it looks like they may want to open up 66.7.87 for the conf.

13:51:35 <dajobe> but later

13:51:51 <dajobe> it was a time for cosnstraint - putting data in triples

13:51:51 <libby> heya al

13:52:02 <alistair> hey libby

13:52:18 <dajobe> OWL's not fully complete for all modeling, but is great and good for most things

13:52:28 <danbri__> hi al

13:52:33 <dajobe> lookin at IP, the IP hourglass - Dave Park

13:52:41 <dajobe> lots of networks ship IP packets around

13:52:45 <dajobe> IP is very simple

13:52:50 <dajobe> and on top tcp/ip etc.

13:53:02 <dajobe> the great thing is that ta constrained bottleneck (IP) allows changes above and below

13:53:02 <alistair> hi danbri

13:53:06 <dajobe> we have this for RDF too

13:53:13 <alistair> how you feeling?

13:53:18 <dajobe> bits above - inference, and below - ontologies, data

13:53:24 <dajobe> now we have constraint it's important

13:53:26 <dajobe> slide 14

13:53:32 <dajobe> semweb phase 2

13:53:43 <dajobe> connecting up applications

13:53:59 <dajobe> [somebody track that quote]

13:54:05 <dajobe> securei tightrope

13:54:13 <pef> pef is now known as paulford

13:54:14 <dajobe> .. phase2 of semweb points

13:54:30 <dajobe> semweb bus

13:54:58 <dajobe> will later on be more powerful languages

13:54:59 <dajobe> not just OWL

13:55:01 <dajobe> slide 15

13:55:11 <mattb> [wondering why people don't switch their phones off in talks... how many years have we had mobiles now?]

13:55:13 <dajobe> recap for those not on the semweb bandwagon

13:55:35 <dajobe> identifiers, names, URIs

13:55:39 <dajobe> names you can lookup too

13:55:47 <DanC> [I didn't remember to turn mine off until I heard that other phone ring. people learn slowly, forget things, etc.]

13:55:49 <dajobe> important for in the f uture to lookup to get back

13:56:12 <dajobe> what would also be useful for people to write in the RDF you get back ffrom retreiving an RDF URI

13:56:20 <dajobe> (that's a question)

13:56:59 <dajobe> sewing together the bits of the vocabuarlies where they need be

13:57:09 <dajobe> it's not al one large lump

13:57:15 <dajobe> it also might eb inconsistent

13:57:19 <dajobe> don't beleive it all

13:57:21 <dajobe> slide 16

13:57:39 <pshab> "don't read it all and try to belive it all at once."

13:58:01 <dajobe> slide 17

13:58:13 <dajobe> connecting to all other parts of the web architecture

13:58:29 <paulford> Runs right off the page.

13:58:34 * DanC can _just_ make out the text on the slides from the back; wonders if other folks can read

13:59:03 <paulford> Kind of blurry, yes.

13:59:10 <dajobe> so what's the semweb app to be?

13:59:12 <dajobe> wrong question

13:59:19 <dajobe> it's not exciting because of the app

13:59:20 <danbri__> oh, hi Paul

13:59:22 * jhendler can read them just fine -- of course, am at front of room... wonder how to get Tim to hit the "font change" button

13:59:30 <dajobe> it's about the connections

13:59:31 <paulford> Hey, Dan.

13:59:44 <edd> jhendler: call him on his cell?

13:59:45 <bkdelong> hehehe

13:59:45 <bkdelong> SMS

13:59:45 * danbri__ adds another to his "reasons to be bummed about not making the nyc trip"

13:59:56 <edd> danbri__: he steals beer.

14:00:00 <dajobe> timbl scrolls down the screen

14:00:05 <DanC> hmm... sms is not a bad idea. I was considering sending him an iChat message, but that would be pretty disruptive.

14:00:06 <dajobe> making a story of the data connections

14:00:25 <paulford> Poor Edd.

14:00:28 <paulford> You rface when I borrowed your beer.

14:00:39 <pshab> everything is connected to everyting?

14:00:45 <dajobe> slide 18

14:00:48 <bkdelong> Anyone trying to use dodgeball.social while in NYC? Since theyve implemented some FOAF?

14:00:50 <DanC> "challenge: put that story to music" ;-)

14:00:54 <paulford> Everything is connected.

14:00:59 <mattb> we had a speaker get MSN'd yesterday

14:01:04 <dajobe> justify the work we do by making some apps

14:01:05 <mattb> japanese messenger window popped up over his slides

14:01:16 <danbri__> he's talking about the non-partitionability of problems...

14:01:36 <dajobe> let's not just fall on handmade markup

14:01:47 <dajobe> the data is out there in relational dbs, web pages

14:01:58 <dajobe> let's change the php scripts to make rdf out there

14:02:03 <DanC> "let's change those php scripts that generate HTML to generate RDF as well"

14:02:07 <dajobe> the RDF Data Access WG (DAWG) is working on this

14:02:30 <dajobe> put an rdf skin over a few apps

14:02:30 <dajobe> try mixing the data together

14:02:39 <dajobe> and find out if interesting things happen with matches

14:02:59 <dajobe> challenges

14:03:05 <danbri__> this is exactly why I stopped worrying about RDF a while ago. Getting the data emitted is easy.

14:03:08 <dajobe> i'd like to see a panel on convertion data to the smeweb

14:03:22 <dajobe> and explaining the great things that happend

14:03:24 <dajobe> slide 19

14:03:35 <dajobe> culture gap here

14:03:57 <dajobe> geeks doing stuff with personal data, public data

14:03:57 <DanC> loggerw, chump C:

14:03:57 <DanC> C:See [http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/www2004/2004-05-19#T14-03-57-1|discussion]

14:03:57 <dajobe> but private data for enterprises

14:03:58 <dc04> Added comment C1.

14:04:10 <dajobe> bridign this gap is imporatnt

14:04:11 <dajobe> slide 20

14:04:22 <dajobe> an idea to get this stuff humming

14:04:33 <dajobe> desktop clipboard, common

14:04:45 <dajobe> say cutting a vector SVG, pasting into a bitmap graphics app

14:05:04 <dajobe> something could conert this by doing negotiation

14:05:07 <paulford> Okay, so the OS is now ontology based.

14:05:10 <dajobe> slide20 challenge

14:05:33 <dajobe> the semweb clipboard ought to be able to take dates cut and make them into events

14:05:38 <dajobe> and can give you an event (paste)

14:05:46 <dajobe> in a certain class

14:05:47 * bkdelong drools at the thought.

14:06:02 <dajobe> for dragging a roll offilm - converting something with time, to simething in space

14:06:13 <paulford> I'm bothered, as usual, by the all-over-the-place of this. "Connect personal data"..."no, make a desktop app."

14:06:15 <dajobe> but the app could undestand the context - where you were, from your GPS

14:06:27 <dajobe> chellgen - go build one

14:06:32 <dajobe> slide 21

14:06:39 <dajobe> it's a FAQ - semweb serach engine

14:06:54 <dajobe> sites such as www.daml.org

14:07:10 <dajobe> not just injdexing data, but rules

14:07:19 <dajobe> there won't be that many rules compared to data

14:07:24 <jhendler> http://www.semanticwebsearch.com

14:07:24 <dajobe> so you might have them all on your laptop

14:07:33 <dajobe> so you could then do local inference

14:07:51 <dajobe> so you can answer a query from the rules

14:07:53 <jhendler>http://www.semanticwebsearch.com

14:07:54 <dc04> E: http://www.semanticwebsearch.com from jhendler

14:08:06 <dajobe> slide 22

14:08:13 <dajobe> don't jus tmake anonology in your head

14:08:14 <jhendler> E:| A semantic Web search engine

14:08:15 <dc04> Titled item E.

14:08:29 <dajobe> put it in a file, OWL

14:08:29 <bkdelong> That's a big one

14:08:29 <dajobe> then put it on the web

14:08:39 <dajobe> and add breadcrumb so people can find the rule files, style files

14:08:47 <dajobe> what else should you put there?

14:08:48 <jhendler> E: Geoff Chappell's early attempt to a SW search engine - 250k documents, 20M triples

14:08:48 <dc04> Added comment E1.

14:08:51 <dajobe> what protocols do we ened?

14:08:53 <bkdelong> I'd have 50 ontologies by now if I knew OWL or RDFS better

14:09:01 <dajobe> slide 23

14:09:10 <dajobe> close to the time for questions

14:09:12 <paulford> Getting close to questions.

14:09:14 <dajobe> semweb bus news

14:09:23 <dajobe> remember from earlier conf, "long ago"

14:09:25 <dajobe> two pieces

14:09:29 <dajobe> rdf and owl, bits we've done

14:09:42 <dajobe> ^- data & ontologies

14:09:42 * em thinks we need to get bkdelong some tools

14:10:09 <dajobe> jhendler gives me a demo of E:

14:10:28 <dajobe> ... got news over dinner about the smerb bus

14:10:31 <dajobe> been implemented

14:10:32 <dajobe> in spain

14:10:40 <dajobe> picture of the w3c bus

14:10:43 * DanC points bkdelong at the semweb/n3 primer http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer

14:11:07 <dajobe> the plastic wrap has been ordered, this is a photoshpped pic

14:11:16 <dajobe> inside, place to be taught about the web

14:11:26 <dajobe> laughter in the audence about the picture

14:11:37 <bkdelong> DanC:Yeah, I picked up Shelley's Practical RDF...going to TRY and read after the baby's born (HA!)

14:11:51 <dajobe> timbl switches to a terminal window

14:11:55 <dajobe> gets a 4040

14:11:57 <dajobe> 404

14:11:59 <paulford> Hit the missing slide.

14:11:59 <bkdelong> hehehe

14:12:01 <dajobe> 404 End of Talk

14:12:05 <mortenf> :)

14:12:11 <dajobe> your homework

14:12:17 <dajobe> the challenges by the end of week in open source

14:12:23 <dajobe> by the next conference in shrinkwrap

14:12:30 <DanC> hmm... how about another approach, bkdelong: you mail me whatever you know about 1 or 2 or 3 ontologies and I'll try to encode them.

14:12:33 <dajobe> the celebration however, should be done immediately

14:12:40 <dajobe> other chellenge is to pick a track to go to

14:12:42 <dajobe> thanks

14:12:44 <dajobe> </keynote>

14:12:47 <dajobe> Q&A

14:13:06 <bkdelong> DanC: Hehehe. Movies - IMDB is one I want to do now. IMDB dumps all their data into CSV fileson an FTP.

14:13:25 <mattb> bkdelong: check out restrictions on reuse, however

14:13:29 <danbri__> IMDB are very uptightabout their data.

14:13:31 <mattb> otherwise we'd be all over movie data by now

14:13:31 * DanC remembers a chat about the IMDB ontology... hmm...

14:13:34 <mattb> i love movies

14:13:39 <bkdelong> That combined with XMLTV RDF can be very powerful.....wish lists, "seen" lists,"to see" lists.

14:13:48 * danbri__ hopes musicbrainz will grow into that space

14:14:06 * mattb hopes the bbc will contribute also

14:14:06 <dajobe> people and microphones move around

14:14:06 <danbri__> there's a mb playlist format now, not rdf version yet tho

14:14:09 <dajobe> Q - like analogy of cut and paste rdf

14:14:16 <bkdelong> Yeah, someone needs to RDFize that

14:14:28 <dajobe> ... in order to make it work for your example for calendar data -> project manager, undertsanding data

14:14:39 <dajobe> .. .going to require a small number of standards for dates, events

14:14:45 <dajobe> .. argues for standard onologies

14:14:52 <dajobe> ... sounds a lot like standard upper ontologies

14:15:03 <dajobe> ... i've been advocating this.

14:15:11 <bkdelong> DanC: With the MeNow:isEating property....trying to determine a food ontrology - packaged food vs individual ingredients vs base organic material - Pringles vs potatos vs soda vs water vs bottled water vs Cristal.

14:15:20 <dajobe> A - SUOs been difficult,

14:15:42 <dajobe> ... standard ontology for calenaring but not Upper ontology

14:15:44 <phl> leigh dodds has some ideas for an RDF format for mb playlists: http://playlist.musicbrainz.org/playlist/moin.cgi/LeighDodds

14:15:46 <danbri__> food ontologies are interesting as they can leak out religious/ethnic info too

14:15:52 <dajobe> [/me wants a better word than ontology, too hard to type]

14:16:00 <danbri__> vocab

14:16:12 <em>http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3354651

14:16:12 <dc04> F: http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3354651 from em

14:16:14 <bkdelong> OWL ?

14:16:14 <dajobe> ... will be certain important ontologies for place and time

14:16:23 <dajobe> ... may be more than one.

14:16:24 <libby> ...and people :)

14:16:30 <em> F:|Semantic Web to Take Center Stage at WWW2004

14:16:31 <dc04> Titled item F.

14:16:32 <danbri__> place, presence we had on swad-e tshirt. didn't include 'time'. should've.

14:16:49 <jhendler>http://www.w3.org/2004/OWL

14:16:49 <dc04> G: http://www.w3.org/2004/OWL from jhendler

14:16:49 <libby> darn

14:16:49 <jhendler> G:|OWL

14:16:49 <dc04> Titled item G.

14:16:49 <dajobe> ... If you look at calendar formats such as IETF iCalendar, rdf calendar group rev engineringn into an rdf ontology

14:16:52 <em> F:By Clint Boulton, May 16 2004

14:16:52 <dc04> Added comment F1.

14:17:03 <dajobe> ... not pretending to be the only one, or top, bottom ontology. not relying on other things

14:17:05 * DanC spots sugar at the back of the room...

14:17:23 <bkdelong> danbri: Already looking into integrating golbeck's Veggie ont into a GUI FOAF editor I'm harassing joeldg to work on :)

14:17:48 <dajobe> ... using small rules files to connect the islands of data, described in differnet onologies

14:18:15 <dajobe> ... the tree ontology approach is to think of something that descibes both calendaring and bank statements, hence an UO

14:18:22 <libby>http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/

14:18:23 <dc04> H: http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ from libby

14:18:32 <libby> H:|RDF calendar workspace

14:18:32 <dajobe> ... it is fine to let people make a bank statement ont. maybe switch later

14:18:33 <dc04> Titled item H.

14:18:34 <danbri__> gui :)

14:18:44 <dajobe> ... the point of semweb developent is to start off with islands and then stitch them together

14:18:54 <dajobe> .. in calendars, it has alreayd been done

14:19:35 <bkdelong> danbri__: Yeah, It's a PITA for me (read: lazy) to enter in all those foaf:knows and then link them with rel: and trust: without some sort of pulldown *grin*

14:20:18 <dajobe> Q: medical data, semweb, many existing ontologies

14:20:27 <bkdelong> Plus I know FOAF adoption will pick up if there's easy point-and-click GUI apps out there.

14:20:30 <dajobe> A: yes, medical uses

14:20:41 <dajobe> ref jhendler, the NCI ontology

14:20:50 <bkdelong> I've been beating practical application is the key to adoption of RDF into EM's head since the day he joined SW ;)

14:20:56 <dajobe> ... yes the whole of life sciences is crying out for the semweb

14:21:13 <dajobe> ... example there was a new novel result been oestregen and breast cancer

14:21:18 <dajobe> ... had gone back to older clinical trials

14:21:20 <danbri__>http://www.w3.org/Talks/WWW94Tim/

14:21:20 <dc04> I: http://www.w3.org/Talks/WWW94Tim/ from danbri__

14:21:31 <dajobe> ... and to do it they head to re-type in data from papers, reports, manilla afolders

14:21:39 <dajobe> ... or take data in differnet formats and figure it out, marshall the data

14:21:40 <danbri__> I:|TimBL 1994 Web Conference keynote slides

14:21:41 <em> bkdelong, trust me, its not an observation I've missed :)

14:21:41 <dc04> Titled item I.

14:21:41 <dajobe> ... and put together

14:22:04 <bkdelong> em: It's the Sally Khudari instilled in me while at ZOT

14:22:10 <dajobe> .. reusuing data is very important. patent ddata. there is very little reuse

14:22:18 <danbri__> I:ie. the 1st web conference, when w3c was announced. It lays out some of the issues that SW addresses.

14:22:19 <dc04> Added comment I1.

14:22:24 <dajobe> ... not just medicine. drug company work.

14:22:39 <em> bkdelong, and one the library community has done for me for the past 15 years :)

14:22:49 <dajobe> .. connections between proteines, genomes. tracing pathways

14:22:54 <em> stick around for dev day :)

14:23:17 <dajobe> ... lots of silos of information systems - genomics

14:23:20 <bkdelong> em: I would but the baby is due tomorrow.

14:23:28 * pshab waves to AndyS

14:23:33 * danbri__ decides to take the long view and bet on impractical applications instead

14:23:34 <em> ah! excellent excuse! congradulations!

14:23:35 <dajobe> ... may not be using the same onts as chemical data, libraries etc.

14:23:53 <jhendler>http://www.mindswap.org/2003/CancerOntology/

14:23:53 <dc04> J: http://www.mindswap.org/2003/CancerOntology/ from jhendler

14:23:53 * AndyS waves to pshab

14:23:53 <danbri__> world peace, perpetual motion, cure for cancer, ...

14:23:53 <dajobe> ... these are big human challenges for finding cures

14:23:57 <jhendler> j:| the NCI Cancer Ontology

14:23:59 <mattb> will the cure for cancer have a gui?

14:24:10 <edd> J:|the NCI Cancer Ontology

14:24:10 <jhendler> J:| the NCI Cancer Ontology

14:24:10 <dajobe> ... the semweb can help here for connecting things aross very large spaces.

14:24:11 <dc04> Titled item J.

14:24:11 <dc04> Titled item J.

14:24:27 <bkdelong> em: I'm doing all my harassing from Mass Ave., Cambridge.

14:24:30 * jhendler has a sticky shift ket

14:24:35 <em> :)

14:24:43 <dajobe> Q: this [medical ] is a nice

14:24:45 <dajobe> niceh

14:24:49 <dajobe> gah, niche

14:25:10 <edd> jhendler: red bull over the laptop's a bad idea :)

14:25:18 <jhendler> J: about 25M - 300k triples

14:25:19 <dc04> Added comment J1.

14:25:30 <bkdelong> Speaking of Medical.....we were thinking the whole concept of a FOAF MeNow vocab would be useful for the Wearables & US Army Digital Sodier initsa.....think of an Ont for vitalSigns

14:25:36 <jhendler> edd - needed to use the red bull to clean off the spilled Guinness.

14:25:37 <dajobe> Q: .. business modles for existing web don't work for semweb [timbl restates]?

14:25:47 <dajobe> A: ... originally people put stuff on the web for others to read it

14:26:19 <bkdelong> Pulls data from various sensors and RDFs it for onboard applications or transmitions to nearby soldiers/cyborgs or just back to HQ

14:26:20 <dajobe> .. there could be a semweb equiv but it couldn't be adversiting supported (such as html)

14:26:32 * danbri__ ponders 'conscienceMode=activated' for the .mil folks

14:26:37 <dajobe> ... but there are cases where both parties are interested in connecting the data

14:27:08 <bkdelong> danbri__: I'm trying to get the Wearable folkd at Media Lab interested in FOAF...next stop is the Futureistic Soldier group or whatever they're called.

14:27:11 <paulford> Did he say "adversplurged"

14:27:21 <danbri__> wearables: cool

14:27:22 <dajobe> ... maybe new business models, for intermediation, bots

14:27:47 <dajobe> ... won't I hope won't happen is people subverting the data by sticking adverts in

14:27:49 <danbri__> soldier stuff worries me... a lot of that next-gen soldier stuff is pretty scary

14:28:07 <dajobe> [we watch the audience write down all these business opportunities]

14:28:09 <jhendler>http://www.w3.org/2002/07/swint

14:28:10 <dc04> K: http://www.w3.org/2002/07/swint from jhendler

14:28:18 <dajobe> - end of questions -

14:28:18 <jhendler> K:| business case for Sem Web

14:28:19 <dc04> Titled item K.

14:28:20 <dajobe> timbl steps down

14:28:25 <pshab> anyone get thew not advertise in the data quote?

14:28:27 <jhendler> K: by TimBL and some friends

14:28:27 <dc04> Added comment K1.

14:28:29 <bkdelong> danbri__: Yes....but that's a) Where money to push through research tends to be and b) Where new tech gets developed faster. Specially here at MIT

14:28:55 <bkdelong> danbri__: They're already doing the research....might as well latch on to their resources to help push along the applications WE want to use it for.

14:29:01 <danbri__> Indeed. W3C has had some DARPA funding, and many other semwebbers...

14:29:44 <bkdelong> danbri__: But, agreed.....the digital sodier stuff is creepy as a whole :)

14:29:51 <dajobe> $20 tshirts

14:30:26 <dajobe> w3photo

14:30:35 <dajobe> royalty free semantic photo history

14:30:50 <dajobe> goal is to have a thousand photos by the end of the week

14:30:54 <dajobe> using the semweb

14:31:10 <bkdelong> Is that up for adding to yet?

14:31:20 <danbri__> sounds like

14:31:20 <dajobe> it's officiall just started

14:31:24 <dajobe> like 100 seconds ago

14:31:45 <bkdelong> What? No FOAF in the Profile? ;)

14:32:40 <jhendler> bkdelong - don't get me started -- but yell at Libby if you think the current thing is a bit too narrow

14:32:58 <libby> erm

14:33:06 * libby had nothing to do w profile :)

14:33:16 <libby> just facilitated the image vocab

14:39:33 <bkdelong> Hmmm

14:39:45 <bkdelong> So how does one draw a hotspot and make an annotation?

14:39:50 <bkdelong> Or does the photographer have to do that?

14:44:43 <shellac> bkdelong: you can use amaya + svg for marking out regions

14:45:13 <danbri__> i thought w3photo used greg's (dhtml?) tool...

15:55:03 Topic now WWW2004 conference chat 18-22 May 2004 - site http://www2004.org/ - weblog http://www2004.xmlhack.com/ - chat logs http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/www2004/

15:55:03 Users on #www2004: loggerw alindeman web_knows FransW pshab_ @dajobe hugoh lilo AndyS davidn KateS_nyc swh ryanlee stefano dc04 em jhendler karlcow mike______ mattb libby mcmay_NYC pshab DanC CLoCKWeRX phl Morbus xover inkel kandinski sbp mortenf marbut bkdelong shellac danbri__ Crustacea kasei _dreaminofjeanni phenny crschmidt MarkB Jibbler @edd

15:55:19 <shellac> dajobe: what?

15:55:20 <edd> jhendler: you're really selling it :)

15:55:25 <mattb> re internet connection - i just checked my laptop's apache and i've been being exploit-scanned all morning

15:55:30 * mattb puts up the firewall

15:55:32 <dajobe> jjc said "panel is being too elitist"

15:55:33 <mattb> easy to forget

15:55:46 <shellac> thanks dave

15:56:07 <dajobe> the web was built by "amateurs"

15:56:10 <jhendler> edd - it is really just an amazingly odd thing - none of them have a clue about how things are really growing

15:56:19 <dajobe> this panel is again, clur free

15:56:21 <dajobe> clue

15:56:30 <jhendler> see - it's not just me :->

15:56:34 <edd> jhendler: is that because they're academic monks?

15:56:54 <shellac> I sense revolution in the air

15:57:18 <pshab_> for ref - I found the [papers link again|http://www2003.org/cdrom/]

15:57:32 <pshab_> opps

15:57:39 <jhendler> things may get a bit more controversial now - Frank vanH goes on attack

15:58:14 <libby> ouch

15:58:23 <shellac> dammit - what?

15:58:36 <libby> "naive", "not done homework"

15:58:47 <shellac> ouch indeed

15:58:48 <jhendler> Frank gets it!!!!

15:58:49 <dajobe> layering of semantics, moving more and more to machines

15:59:10 <shellac> sounds like the revolt has a leader

15:59:15 * DanC watches Karl present http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0519-web-site-quality/ ... hmm... I had to give my password to get those slides

15:59:22 <jhendler> well, just cause he got to talk first

15:59:46 <jhendler> Karl's slides are team protected

15:59:47 * DanC wonders if karl is going to show the ,timbl tool

16:00:07 <jhendler> battery about to die

16:00:28 * lilo usually runs 'stealth' 8)

16:00:30 <shellac> DanC: I get asked - then cancel - and can see the slides (?)

16:00:44 <libby> the css?

16:00:47 <DanC> perhaps just one of the stylesheets or images is access controlled

16:01:15 <mattb> that happened with ericp yesterday

16:01:24 <mattb> content was there, had to cancel a password prompt to see it but was unstyled

16:01:28 <shellac> yep - css looks like the problem

16:01:38 <libby> yeah that's what made me think of it

16:02:21 <xover> Needs some Quality Assuarance methinks...

16:02:25 <pshab_>http://www2003.org/cdrom/

16:02:26 <dc04> N: http://www2003.org/cdrom/ from pshab_

16:02:45 <DanC> ah... cool... karl's talk is in article form: http://www.w3.org/QA/2004/05/using-web-standards

16:02:58 <pshab_> N:|Link to papers at WWW2004

16:03:11 <mattb> pshab_: 2003?

16:03:49 <pshab_> mattb:brain not on

16:03:51 <pshab_> sorry

16:03:53 <dajobe> timbl gets up

16:04:00 <pshab_> N:|Link to papers at WWW2003

16:04:02 <dajobe> timbl: semweb is metadata

16:04:17 <mattb> *not just* metadata

16:04:19 * DanC can hear timbl thru the wall. heh.

16:04:20 <mattb> is data

16:04:20 <dajobe> start off there, but is data

16:04:23 <libby> heh

16:05:58 <cdent> anybody mind if i set up a bot to log this channel with some purple numbers?

16:06:27 <mattb> purple numbers?

16:06:29 * DanC wonders what purple number are, but doesn't mind a log

16:06:35 <libby> purple?

16:06:37 <shellac> bot?

16:06:37 <mattb> there's already a log

16:06:42 <libby> its being logged anyway right?

16:06:43 <DanC> loggerw, pointer?

16:06:43 <DanC> See http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/www2004/2004-05-19#T16-06-43

16:06:48 <lilo> I think someone's already logging....but redundancy never hurts

16:06:52 <lilo> bot goes away, log goes away

16:07:02 <cdent> if I set up the log you'll see what purple numbers are but also: http://purplewiki.blueoxen.net/

16:07:07 <libby> true

16:07:09 <cdent> will go ahead and set it up, just a sec

16:07:46 <dajobe> if anyone wants to link stuff to the www2004.xmlhack.com site, ask edd, mattb or myself

16:07:57 <shellac> the logger did go down for a bit, so it will help if ilrt is cut off

16:08:28 <pshab_> can we get the papers put up on the www2004 site?

16:09:04 <libby> I think they will be aventually

16:09:16 <mattb> was there a cdrom in the backpack?

16:09:24 <swh> mattb: yep

16:09:47 <pshab_> yeh - it would be goot to be able to link to them from here though

16:10:11 <pshab_> s/goot/good

16:10:35 <mattb>http://www.cafeconleche.org/

16:10:35 <dc04> O: http://www.cafeconleche.org/ from mattb

16:10:58 <mattb> O:|Elliote Rusty Harold rolling coverage of www2004

16:11:15 <mattb> O:can't find a permalink, this is his regular frontpage...

16:12:05 <mattb> O:=http://www.cafeconleche.org/oldnews/news2004May19.html

16:12:12 <mattb> O:|Elliote Rusty Harold coverage of www2004 day 1

16:12:13 <MarkB> http://www.cafeconleche.org/oldnews/news2004May19.html

16:12:20 <MarkB> oops

16:12:32 <phl> mattb: O1:"" also?

16:12:39 <mattb> ta phl

16:17:25 * DanC looked at http://purplewiki.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl but still doesn't see what a purple number is

16:17:42 <libby> ianh: "we need to reduce the cost of laying an egg"

16:17:46 <dajobe> excess metaphors

16:18:00 <mattb> DanC: http://collab.blueoxen.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?PurpleNumbers seems to be a starting point

16:18:02 <dajobe> do OWLs lay eggs?

16:18:04 <mattb> but i haven't grokked it yet

16:18:32 <mattb> seems to just be anchors

16:18:34 <DanC> ah... numbering paragraphs and such. reminds me of Engelbart's stuff

16:18:38 <mattb> like we already have in loggerw's logs

16:19:04 <dajobe> does anyone remember planning how to scale the web?

16:19:08 <dajobe> nope

16:20:17 * DanC vaguely remembers planning how to scale the web. short version: don't require backlinks.

16:21:56 * shellac departs for home

16:22:02 <libby> ianh: "we nede to enable people to satisfy their vanity more cheapy"

16:22:05 <libby> bye!

16:22:13 <shellac> thanks for relaying the fun everyone :-)

16:24:19 <libby> ian's got a way with words :)

16:25:19 <cdent> transclusion test

16:25:48 <cdent> [t 4RT]

16:25:50 <perplog> [2004-05-19 11:24:19] <[cdent]?>: transclusion test (more: http://www.burningchrome.com:8000/~cdent/www2004/irclog.20040519.wiki#nid4RT)

16:26:10 <dajobe> this perlog bot better not be that noisy

16:26:35 <cdent> it's only noisy if you ask it to be...

16:27:17 <dajobe> bad chairing here, lots of ppl ignorred

16:27:34 <cdent> the point, though, is that you can go back later and reference stuff in the log very easily by using the urls after each line in the log

16:27:54 <cdent> and for fun you can do stuff like this:

16:28:00 <cdent> [t 4RV]

16:28:01 <perplog> [2004-05-19 11:25:10] <[dajobe]?>: this perlog bot better not be that noisy (more: http://www.burningchrome.com:8000/~cdent/www2004/irclog.20040519.wiki#nid4RV)

16:28:24 <mattb> cdent: any real advantage over eg http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/chatlogs/www2004/2004-05-19#T16-06-43 ?

16:28:34 <mattb> that log has anchors all down the left hand side

16:28:57 <cdent> same thing basically, but if you have other purple numbered stuff, you can do transclusions

16:29:07 <dajobe> yes, we have the line uris alreayd

16:29:25 <ryanlee> ls

16:29:28 * ryanlee doh

16:29:32 <cdent> which, at least for me is very handy

16:30:15 <perplog> StevenP__! Good to see you. This channel is being logged The last activity was 39 seconds ago.

16:30:23 <cdent> i suspect people are going to whine about the history thing it does: when you return it tells you the last few lines

16:30:27 <dajobe> wow, too noisy

16:30:32 <mattb> yes, we will whine :)

16:30:36 <mattb> this channel is too busy for extra noise

16:30:45 <dajobe> we are going to reduce the dc04 noise

16:30:59 <mattb> session over

16:31:00 * mattb unplugs

16:31:23 <cdent> so, should turn off the greeting then: I thought it was only polite to let people know they are being loggged...

16:32:35 <phl> the topic mentions it, which should serve the same purpose

16:32:58 <libby> yeah logged anyway, be fine

16:36:13 <cdent> okay, it should be off now

16:36:37 <cdent> guess it's time for lunch

16:41:32 <lilo> I added a "you're on freenode" line on join

16:41:54 <cdent> [t 4RV]

16:41:55 <perplog> [2004-05-19 11:25:10] <[dajobe]?>: this perlog bot better not be that noisy (more: http://www.burningchrome.com:8000/~cdent/www2004/irclog.20040519.wiki#nid4RV)

16:43:10 * lilo tweaks

16:43:44 * cdent tweaks as well

17:11:00 <lilo> problems with wireless?

17:37:48 * cdent whines about lack of power outlets

17:38:38 * hugoh wonders if there's a PGP-signing gig planned during the conference

17:39:46 <danbri__> How did the "Will this new fangled (semantic) Web thing ever work" panel go?

17:41:57 <bkdelong> A: [http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1595458,00.asp?kc=MWRSS02129TX1K0000535| Berners-Lee Attacks Domain-Name Expansion ]

17:42:21 <cdent> is there a bulletin board around somewhere (electronic or paper). I'mm looking for some folk to go bouldering in central park.

17:45:39 <danbri__> hmm MS-watch have timbl as 'father of the internet'

17:46:14 <bkdelong> Not surprised

17:47:38 <shellac> ooh - perplog is cute

17:47:39 <perplog> dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,

17:47:45 <shellac> if slightly alarming

17:48:03 <danbri__> what's perplog?

17:48:04 <perplog> Had the whole of their cash in his care.

17:48:15 <cdent> a bot doing some logging

17:48:29 <shellac> try /part-ing then rejoining

17:48:30 <cdent> makes a log with purple numbers, does some other things like

17:48:33 <danbri__> perplog, are you channeling astral gibberish?

17:48:37 <cdent> weather nyc

17:48:38 <perplog> Sorry, you don't seem to have Weather::Underground installed

17:48:41 <shellac> it /msgd me what I had missed

17:48:46 <danbri__> neat

17:49:27 <cdent> seen danbri__

17:49:28 <perplog> Last saw danbri__ 41 seconds ago saying "neat".

17:49:40 <cdent> [t 49Z]

17:49:40 <perplog> -- - T (more: http://www.burningchrome.com:8000/~cdent/wiki.cgi?McCormicksCreekOhFour#nid49Z)

17:49:54 <cdent> oh, hmm, wrong nid

17:49:55 <paulford_> I can't decide what to go to at 2.

17:50:43 <paulford_> "Web Semantics and Web Services: a marriage made in heaven?"

17:51:10 <shellac> '...or hell'? you decide

17:51:39 <cdent> hell

17:52:13 <paulford_> Yeah, something tells me it isn't heaven.

17:52:20 <paulford_> Phrasing it as a question is always a bad idea.

17:52:20 <danbri__> "Web Services & Semantic Web: From Kissing Cousins to Shotgun Wedding?"

17:53:00 <paulford_> Web Services & the Semantic Web: if they breed, their child will be the antichrist, and the world will end

17:53:30 <cdent> i went to the foundation of web services tutorials yesterday and came away with some kind of over exposure to acronyms disease

17:53:35 * danbri__ thinks their child will be distributed RDF query services, but it seems a minority view

17:53:43 <Morbus> Web Services & the Semantic Web: Small Pieces Joined By A Blind Man And His Feet

17:54:11 <paulford_> I guess I'd better actually go over there.

18:03:10 <lilo> hi jhendler, ryanlee, FransW

18:03:34 <jhendler> hello

18:04:06 <jhendler> lilo - am I doing something wrong - seem to be getting "perplog" stuff

18:04:29 <cdent> that's me, i'm going to kill of the history thing, some people seem to like it though

18:04:31 <lilo> jhendler: it's a kind of noisy bot, talking to the proprietor 8)

18:04:38 <ryanlee> hi lilo

18:05:00 <lilo> oops, the proprietor is already on it 8)

18:06:40 <FransW_> FransW_ is now known as FransW

18:08:03 <pshab> BLURB:Community Track

18:08:03 <dc04> P: Community Track from pshab

18:08:35 <teefal> hi all, i am making links to other websites on storymill.net

18:08:42 <teefal> i would like to link to w3photo

18:08:46 <dajobe> apparently timbl is the father of blogs

18:08:56 <teefal> is there a button?

18:09:10 <dajobe> he must have wrote the "what's new in 92" web page

18:09:19 * lilo hopes alindeman made the right mistake this time

18:09:24 <alindeman> Heh

18:09:36 <pshab> P:Topic-Oriented Blogging - Judit Bar-Ilan

18:09:57 <dajobe> hey pshab, mattb and I are in this session

18:10:22 <pshab> sorry wasn't reading

18:10:29 <dajobe> carry on :)

18:12:05 <pshab> P:Intros blogging... what are they, blogsphere, blogrolls...

18:12:54 <pshab> P:RSS... XML/RDF - syndication of metadata, permalinks

18:14:37 <pshab> P:stats. 2-7% of US internet users maintain blogs... 11% read other source says only 4% read, not sure why discrepency

18:15:21 <lilo> re DanC

18:15:27 <pshab> P:another source only 1/3 of blogs active

18:15:36 <dajobe> pshab: reminds me of the colston talk by whatsername

18:16:19 <pshab> dajobe: yep err... cant' remember name

18:17:02 <pshab> P:catagroies of blogs, personal, business etc... formats, etc

18:18:36 <pshab> dajobe: Bonnie Nardi - http://blog.ilrt.org/colston/archives/cat_keynote_1.html

18:19:34 <pshab> P:study of blogs, describes those used in study - catagroieses them

18:22:35 <pshab> P:... by topic/area of interest

18:23:42 <pshab> P:stats on posting min/max/average per day, links per post, topic, length, placement of links, relations between postings and links

18:24:29 <pshab> P:... where do the links link to?

18:25:00 <tehmaze> moin

18:25:06 <tehmaze> so what is this all about?

18:25:29 <pshab> P:findings , av postings per day 0.11, max 11, all some days off

18:26:47 <pshab> P:aveage links per posting 0.54 min 0, max 31 comments, disabled in 7...

18:27:23 <dajobe> tehmaze: see the topic

18:27:52 <pshab> P:popularity indicators - using technorati...

18:29:34 <pshab> P:most postings topic oriented, ... lots of stats on posting links esp. where to

18:29:39 <cdent> it's interesting the different in perspective between blogger outsider and insider

18:29:57 <cdent> also amusing that many of us in irc are here

18:30:45 <pshab> P:target/souce relationship - quotation (27.6%), description (24.4%), comment (14.?), ... in that order

18:31:53 <pshab> P:conclusions - still need to know why people read them and increase that number... [did I get that right?]

18:33:13 <pshab> P15:target/souce link relationship - quotation (27.6%), description (24.4%), comment (14.?), ... in that order

18:35:00 <pshab> P:presentation ends

18:35:18 <DanC> not sure how well I did on the challenge of picking among the parallel sessions this time. I ended up choosing the W3C track because I left my power brick here.

18:35:35 <dajobe>http://flare.dstc.edu.au/WWW7Shoe/

18:35:35 <dc04> Q: http://flare.dstc.edu.au/WWW7Shoe/ from dajobe

18:35:38 <pshab> anyone what to take over scribing the community sesson?

18:35:39 <edd> DanC: that sounds a familiar tale from conferences past :)

18:35:41 <dajobe> Q:|WWW7 shoe museum

18:36:15 <DanC> Richard Ishida's slides are very clean and attractive.

18:36:51 <DanC> to wit: http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0519-www2004-i18n/

18:37:04 <DanC> hmm... the look different on my screen than presented.

18:37:21 <DanC> oh... duh...

18:37:24 <edd> Richard always does top-class presentations

18:39:05 <DanC> yup

18:39:43 <DanC> hmm... the .pdf version of his slides has crummy fonts or antialiasing or something

18:44:16 <dajobe>http://www.cultos.org/

18:44:18 <dc04> R: http://www.cultos.org/ from dajobe

18:44:37 <dajobe> R:|CULTOS - multimedia KM tools for culture and arts

18:44:39 <mattb>http://digimuse.cis.drexel.edu/

18:44:39 <dc04> S: http://digimuse.cis.drexel.edu/ from mattb

18:44:49 <mattb> S:|Drexel Digital Museum project

18:45:12 <dajobe> R:links to their semweb work, ontology

18:47:03 <dajobe> grey on black, bad idea for GUIs

18:47:19 * edd greets ERH

18:48:31 <ERH> Minute by minute updates are on the main page at http://www.cafeconleche.org/

18:48:55 <ERH> The permalink is only updated once per hour, and then only if the main page happens to be well-formed at the right minute

18:48:58 <pshab> museum browser - interesting in relation to interaction design & sem web session yesterday - diff interface to faceted browse

18:49:08 <ERH> which is less is likely than it should be because I'm typing on the live site.

18:49:47 <mattb> O:live updates on [the homepage|http://www.cafeconleche.org/]

18:49:53 <mattb> ERH: there you go, annotated

18:50:10 <dajobe> "kneeling pillow"?

18:50:34 <dajobe> I wonder if taking pictures of this session would have big copyright problems

18:51:39 <dajobe> lots ofquicktime vr

18:51:50 <pshab> adding number of items under a catagory (facet) in the search mode would help reduce the no hit results

18:52:42 <pshab> the vr is really fast...

18:53:23 <pshab> point made that people who dont' want to donate physical objects can give digital access to valuable items

18:53:59 <dajobe> pshab, mattb and I are discussing the "WC: Web of Communities" track stuff, R:, S: items in the chump

18:54:13 <pshab> WC: [additonal benefit I guess that metadata bout the items is there too]

18:56:09 <_dreaminofjeanni> _dreaminofjeanni is now known as adamhill

18:56:09 <adamhill> adamhill is now known as _dreaminofjeanni

18:56:33 <_dreaminofjeanni> _dreaminofjeanni is now known as adamhill

19:03:08 <pshab>http://dent.infolab.nwu.edu/infolab/projects/project.asp?ID=31

19:03:08 <dc04> T: http://dent.infolab.nwu.edu/infolab/projects/project.asp?ID=31 from pshab

19:04:03 <pshab> T:|Imagination Environment [Web of communities track]

19:05:48 <pshab> WC: demo I like that...

19:07:07 <dajobe> yes, as a video was shown of GWB state of the union

19:07:13 <dajobe> in a 3x3 array of images, video in centre

19:07:20 <pshab> WC:demo showed state of union address from Bush - with images dynamically shown around it from google image search

19:07:23 <dajobe> the image seraches for words and word pairs showed aligned images around

19:09:43 <pshab> WC: demo video at http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~ayman/media/MediaArtsDemo_DV_Bright-web.wmv

19:11:21 <pshab> WC: current of imagaination environment installation at http://imagination.cs.northwestern.edu/ss-etc/

19:14:15 <pshab> W

19:14:22 <pshab> opps

19:15:16 <pshab> WC: worked out how to find words to use from doing an analysis of occurnace in google searches and eliminating the lowest 15%(?)

19:15:48 <pshab> WC: Then checked that against real people familarity with words(? I think)

19:18:11 <pshab> WC: used the highest freq word as follow on word(s) (?)

19:18:46 <cdent> WC: highest frequency phrase: high score is chosen

19:18:59 <cdent> uh, huh

19:19:36 <mattb>http://dent.infolab.nwu.edu/infolab/papers/paper_desc.asp?ID=10123

19:19:36 <dc04> U: http://dent.infolab.nwu.edu/infolab/papers/paper_desc.asp?ID=10123 from mattb

19:19:45 <mattb> U:|Network Arts: Exposing Cultural Reality

19:19:56 <mattb> U:abstract with link to paper PDF

19:20:23 <dajobe> his demos are linked off T:

19:22:06 <FransW>http://www-306.ibm.com/able/solution_offerings/hpr.html

19:22:06 <dc04> V: http://www-306.ibm.com/able/solution_offerings/hpr.html from FransW

19:22:26 <FransW> V:|A powerful Web access tool for blind and low vision users.

19:22:47 <pshab> WC: idea from audience of doing a similar thing with next year's WWW conf papers - based on analysis of text...

19:29:36 <FransW> V: demoed at the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG 2.0) track

19:30:41 <digikim> hi

19:30:55 <dajobe> that WC track was fun

19:32:21 * mattb agrees

19:32:22 <DanC> ok, muscial chairs time. Recommendations for next session?

19:32:33 * DanC is considering a nap

19:32:46 <mattb> reminds me of Dorkbot events

19:33:29 <digikim> understanding user goals in web search sounds interesting :)

19:33:49 <DanC> hmm... XForms is next here in the W3C track. I might stay for that.

19:34:13 <digikim> do you now what they are going to talk about? anything new related to xforms?

19:34:19 <edd> That W3C ghetto thing getting you, eh, Danc? :)

19:34:41 <DanC> XForms has been on my buzzwords-to-learn list for a while.

19:35:33 <edd> It has been popular at conferences of late.

19:35:52 <shellac> DanC: I'm currently writing up and XForms for RDF report for swade

19:37:10 <digikim> I hope they have in Tokio next year enough electric extension cords, so that people with laptops that don't have 8h batteries could use laptops all the time :)

19:38:07 * danbri__ ponders status of mozilla xforms... http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97806 seems alive but slow-motion

19:38:54 * danbri__ assumes shellac's seen http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/09/10/xforms.html

19:38:58 <edd> danbri__: conversations i've had with mozilla people seem to put a low value on implementingxforms

19:39:13 <edd> they're reluctant enough to accept the svg work in

19:39:22 * danbri__ heard ibm were throwing some mythical manmonths at it

19:39:30 <edd> i think it's the namespace mixing issue that scares them

19:39:43 <edd> and with good cause. im

19:39:44 <edd> o

19:39:45 <shellac> that xml article doesn't describe the full horror

19:40:02 <edd> shellac: i have to pay extra for horror, budget doesn't always stretch

19:40:23 <shellac> I found four implementations which used different namespaces for xhtml and xforms

19:40:29 <shellac> argh

19:40:47 <shellac> that _really_ threw me

19:41:37 <shellac> but IBM, Oracle and Novell all have work in progress

19:42:25 <shellac> Novell use xmlns:xforms="http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms/cr btw

19:42:50 <shellac> that's a very useful fact and you will thank me for it :-)

19:44:02 <edd> i don't understand how you can get all the way through an xml application of that complexity,

19:44:09 <edd> and not understand that you don't mess with the namespace

19:44:25 <edd> i think it's because it's just a name

19:44:31 <danbri__> i guess ppl were tracking the specs as they changed

19:44:35 <edd> like calling somebody by the wrong name but they're too polite to correct you

19:44:36 <shellac> I suspect the novell app is pretty old, but still

19:44:39 <danbri__> some early rdf apps got stuck using earlier ns uris

19:44:43 <danbri__> dmoz etc

19:44:45 <edd> with software libraries you get a link failure if you do that

19:44:49 <edd> there's no penalty on the semweb

19:45:10 <edd> sometimes sticks not just carrots are required

19:45:31 <shellac> chiba, however, wants xhtml2 - and won't work properly without it

19:45:55 <shellac> and this is all before you check out how much of xforms they support

19:46:09 <shellac> am I ranting? sorry :-)

20:01:42 <libby> anyone seem the ilrters?

20:01:51 <libby> dajobe, pshb, kates...?

20:02:07 <libby> heh

20:02:12 <libby> that was cool

20:02:22 <mattb> power!

20:02:23 <libby> dajobe, pshab, where are you?

20:03:48 <pshab> in the serach engineering strand - me & kate

20:03:55 <mattb>http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~olston/publications/webstudy.html

20:03:55 <dc04> W: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~olston/publications/webstudy.html from mattb

20:04:03 <mattb> W:|What's New on the Web? The Evolution of the Web from a Search Engine Perspective

20:04:18 <mattb> W:search engineering track

20:06:50 <libby> BLURB:Xforms 1.0: en route to success!

20:06:50 <dc04> X: Xforms 1.0: en route to success! from libby

20:07:25 <libby> X:Steven Pemberton in "mixing markup and style for interactive content" session

20:09:10 * maxf waves

20:09:16 <danbri__> hi maxf

20:09:18 <libby> heya maxf

20:10:59 <libby> X:=http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/05-19-steven-XForms-WWW2004/

20:11:05 <libby> hm

20:11:50 <edd> libby: 'fraid you can't change the type of an entry

20:12:12 <libby> X:[http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/05-19-steven-XForms-WWW2004/|Steven's slides] from [http://www.w3.org/2004/03/w3c-track04.html|W3C track page]

20:12:28 <mattb> W:references *shingles* from the paper [Syntactic Clustering of the Web|http://decweb.ethz.ch/WWW6/Technical/Paper205/Paper205.html#Defining%20similarity%20of%20documents]

20:14:49 * shellac waves to maxf

20:15:18 <maxf> hi shellac! Sorry you didn't come

20:15:33 <libby> X:[CSS Zen garden - amazing examples|http://www.csszengarden.com/]

20:17:00 <shellac> well, we'll always have irc

20:17:35 <shellac> and an army of scribes to do our bidding :-)

20:18:23 <libby> X:[amazing, cartoon css zen garden example|http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/099/099.css&page=0]

20:19:55 <shellac> that is an amazing site. why doesn't my stuff look that great?

20:20:03 <karlcow>http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/semweb/email.html

20:20:03 <dc04> Y: http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/semweb/email.html from karlcow

20:20:12 <libby> it's stunning, isn;t it

20:20:33 <phl> static content, though, makes things easier in terms of fixed positioning etc

20:20:38 <pshab> libby:link on chump goes to http://www.csszengarden.com/ not the cartoon

20:20:42 <karlcow> Y:|Semantic Email

20:20:50 <maxf> as dean pointed out to me, zengarden is all very well, but much of the text is pictures (titles mostly). So when you change the text you need to update the pictures as well.

20:21:04 <mattb> +1

20:21:24 <mattb> the text for the headings is in the html but gets replaced in the css

20:21:28 <mattb> fahrner image replacement

20:21:50 <mattb> only way to do that for a dynamic site would be to point to a text-to-image renderer or something

20:22:01 <danbri__> ick

20:22:04 <danbri__> pretty tho

20:22:05 <mattb> at least it means the text is there too, though

20:22:10 <mattb> for screenreaders and googlebot

20:22:17 <dajobe> I wish perplog would quit that greeting stuff

20:22:17 <perplog> I bent my wookie.

20:22:31 <shellac> :-)

20:22:53 <libby> poor perplog

20:22:54 <perplog> Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and then the baby looked at me.

20:23:02 <karlcow> Y:Talk part of the Semantic Interfaces and OWL Tools

20:23:03 <shellac> It's a comic. AI is complete.

20:23:03 <danbri__> lol

20:23:04 <karlcow> Y: karlcow, it seems to be very related to an organizational tool for groups

20:24:13 <karlcow> hmmm network is bad.... on New-York B

20:25:06 <maxf> yep. slow

20:25:25 <libby> seems ok here in NY b

20:25:42 <karlcow> Y: [http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/semweb/pubs/www2004.pdf|Article presented for the conference]

20:25:55 <mattb> royal-a also fine

20:26:03 * edd looks curiously at perplog

20:26:08 <libby> X:[more xforms info|http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/]

20:26:30 <shellac> no witty response perplog?

20:26:31 <perplog> Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none

20:26:37 <cdent> more info on perplog here:

20:26:37 <perplog> For where thou art, there is the world itself, and where though art not, desolation

20:26:43 <libby> X:panel tomorrow aafternoon about xforms, and on saturday 3 hour devday session

20:27:01 <cdent> https://kb-dev.indiana.edu/irclog/kbdev/

20:27:01 <dc04> Z: https://kb-dev.indiana.edu/irclog/kbdev/ from cdent

20:27:11 <cdent> crap, wrong paste

20:27:18 <edd> cdent: any way to stop it with the wisecracks?

20:27:20 <cdent>http://wiki.simpleideas.org/index.cgi?Perplog

20:27:20 <dc04> AA: http://wiki.simpleideas.org/index.cgi?Perplog from cdent

20:27:23 <cdent> there we go

20:27:30 <mattb> cdent: yes, please shut it up

20:27:33 * edd is used to having center stage for wisecracks, not a bot

20:28:01 <cdent> oh fine, you guys are a bit humorless, no?

20:28:14 <libby> I quite like it

20:28:15 <mattb> cdent: i like the simpsons quotes, i don't like it privmsging me

20:28:35 <cdent> you mean when you log in, or the history?

20:28:48 <cdent> sorry, the greeting or the history, the history has been removed

20:28:58 <mattb> when it talks to me in privmsg without prompting

20:29:00 <mattb> i guess that was on login

20:29:08 <mattb> it speaks without being spoken to :)

20:29:11 <dajobe> yes, stop it doing that on login

20:29:17 <cdent> k

20:29:21 <dajobe> a log bot should be passive

20:29:22 <libby>http://www.w3.org/Talks/2004/0519-CSS-WWW2004/all.htm

20:29:22 <dc04> AB: http://www.w3.org/Talks/2004/0519-CSS-WWW2004/all.htm from libby

20:29:30 <mattb> bots are fine if they respond to direct chat

20:29:39 <libby> AB:|CSS3 for Behaviors and Hypertext - Bert Bos

20:29:52 <cdent> dajobe: i don't think that's strictly true, it depends on what you are trying to do

20:29:59 <libby> AB:"the year of CSS3 :)"

20:30:09 <cdent> for example: if you are in a situation where you need to notify people that they are being logged

20:30:18 <cdent> and the history does a lot to contextualize people

20:30:23 <dajobe> i've been running a log bot for 3+ years, fwiw

20:30:30 <dajobe> this is OT, can you just fix it for now, thanks

20:30:35 <cdent> yeah, on it

20:31:23 <libby> it's just a difference in perspective cdent

20:31:33 <libby> we're used to a different style

20:32:06 * libby likes silly bots, esp when noone's scribing

20:32:41 <mattb> this sucks: top hit on google for the session i'm in is the acm.org site for the paper

20:32:45 <dajobe> it's the annual haystack talk time

20:32:49 <mattb> PDF of the paper available to subscribers only

20:32:54 <mattb> acm.org broke the web

20:32:57 <dajobe> :)

20:35:28 <nmg> sarky...

20:36:29 * nmg can't believe he just typed that rather than turning to his left and saying it directly to dajobe

20:37:10 <dajobe> a user interface user agent for semweb data

20:37:19 <dajobe> or something like that

20:38:15 <dajobe> haystack semantic web browser in a style similar to web browsers

20:38:24 <dajobe> java, eclipse

20:38:39 <dajobe> VOWL - view ontology web language

20:38:57 <dajobe> vowl describes presentation knowledge about ontologies for user agents

20:39:15 <dajobe> higher level features views , lenses and operators

20:39:23 <dajobe> views - ways of looking at resource

20:39:31 <dajobe> lenses -s ets of props useful to do together

20:39:37 <dajobe> oeprators - ... [too late]

20:40:12 <dajobe> haystack incrementally shows human readable, presentational info depending on tehschema info

20:40:18 <dajobe> or schemes, views, custome views

20:40:44 <pshab> BLURP:Understanding user goals in web search

20:40:45 <dajobe> starting from rdfs:label and going up to full customisation by the user

20:40:53 <dajobe> lol

20:41:18 <shellac> shab need burping :-)

20:41:51 <dajobe> C3 - split (metadata), presetnation, service description

20:42:04 <nmg> (nice idea - introduces some abstractions to the process of building SW application interfaces)

20:42:06 <pshab> :) - wot'd I do wrong there?

20:42:16 <dajobe> ... bioinformatics application space - rich interconnected metadata

20:42:18 <libby> blurb not blurp :)

20:42:23 <pshab> ah :)

20:42:27 <libby> heh

20:43:04 <pshab> BLURB:Understanding user goals in web search

20:43:04 <dc04> AC: Understanding user goals in web search from pshab

20:43:13 <dajobe> ... C3 - haystack demo, not scribing

20:44:09 <pshab> AC:by Daniel E. Rose, Yahoo!

20:44:59 <pshab> AC:first bit about catagorisign high level search goals...

20:47:38 <pshab> AC:did analysis on web data - noticed relation to Broder's catagories and compared results

20:49:08 <pshab> AC:[done with altavista data] found differences in numbers in catagories - why? ... defn's diff, ...

20:49:45 <pshab> AC:now early work on Yahoo! data

20:49:48 * dajobe !!!

20:49:57 <dajobe> ... C3 haystack imports rdf chat irc logs

20:50:02 * nmg watches dajobe get the twitching awfuls

20:50:12 * dajobe hides

20:50:12 <shellac> busted :-)

20:51:07 <dajobe> oh god

20:51:07 <dajobe> he's templating the irc chat logs

20:51:35 <libby> "templating"?

20:51:44 <dajobe> gosh

20:51:50 <pshab> AC:looking to explore/validate more adn then work out how to classfiy more automatically...

20:51:51 <nmg> very, very nifty

20:51:55 <dajobe> he munges the data to produce a summary

20:52:00 <dajobe> I'm too stunned to summarise

20:52:06 <jhendler>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jul/0300.html

20:52:07 <dc04> AD: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jul/0300.html from jhendler

20:52:14 <pshab> dajobe:can you point is to anyting?

20:52:15 <dajobe> ropey rdf ontology exposed to the world

20:52:19 <jhendler> AD:| Naming OWL subsets

20:52:31 <dajobe> it was a haystack demo, live stuff

20:53:12 <jhendler> AD: I had "VOWL" first :->

20:54:42 <dajobe> C3 ... (semantic web) browser not semantic (web brwoser)

20:57:03 <mattb> dajobe: you stunned good or stunned bad?

20:57:05 <dajobe> C3: ... ends - Dennis Quan reporting - haystack.lcs.mit.edu and also w3c track, and deve day saturday

20:57:16 <dajobe> mattb: yes

20:57:45 <pshab> dajobe:go on tell us more...

20:59:35 <shellac> did they mention what the requirements are for haystack these days?

20:59:53 <pshab> were the summaries good?

21:00:09 <pshab>http://oak.cs.ucla.edu/~cho/papers/cho-bias.pdf

21:00:09 <dc04> AE: http://oak.cs.ucla.edu/~cho/papers/cho-bias.pdf from pshab

21:00:27 * shellac waves to AndyS

21:00:36 <pshab> AE:|Impact of Web Search Engines on Page Popularity

21:01:03 <libby>http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/dj-www2004-mixedmarkup/

21:01:04 <dc04> AF: http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/dj-www2004-mixedmarkup/ from libby

21:01:19 <libby> AF:|Mixed Markup and Web Applications - Dean Jackson

21:01:34 * edd reads AF: eagerly

21:01:49 * edd doesn't read AF:

21:01:59 * edd has no sensible means of viewing it on Linux

21:02:09 <pshab> AE:starting point that users not see what is on the web but what is biased by what is on the search engins

21:02:25 <edd> every year I rant that I can't see SVG, every year I'm told it'll be better :( no dice.

21:02:51 <pshab> AE:so... is it the case that rich get richer... as popular are hit more?

21:02:55 <libby> this isn't the svg one

21:03:18 <edd> libby: "This presentation uses content that is probably not displayed in most browsers. It uses its own browser (requires Adobe SVG viewer V6 preview or later). Here are the slides."

21:03:19 <shellac> I don't think anyone has ASV 6 - except a chosen few

21:03:49 <pshab> AE:aim to find out how much bais the search engiens generate

21:03:49 <edd> AF:transcription of slides welcome, as they can't be viewed by most people.

21:04:37 <libby> AF:e.g. XHTML plus SVG plus mathml; xhtml+ xforms; general: your own xml formats

21:05:02 <pshab> AE:construced weekly web link graphs... from set of pages 150(?) web sites and immediate neighbours

21:05:04 <shellac> ooh - is this sXBL?

21:05:30 <libby> I huess so...not mentionned it so far

21:05:32 <libby> guess

21:05:55 <pshab> AE:partitioned into groups based on popularity 10% sets

21:06:20 <pshab> AE:so can see if rich get richer by watching this over time

21:06:38 <libby> AF:browser support isn't there yet - that's why dean wrote oen browser - in order to demo these things

21:07:14 <pshab> AE:graph... shows popular pages get more links - 70% of new liks pointing to top 20%... bottom 60% got hardly any

21:08:01 <pshab> AE:used a pagerank metric - shows same trend - wiht popular increasing and unpop getting less popular

21:08:45 <pshab> AE:so. yes rich do get richer

21:09:16 <pshab> AE:How much of this is due to search engins?

21:09:52 <pshab> AE: and thus what degree of bias is caused in the users perception of "the web"

21:10:40 <pshab> AE:... question - what is an ideal way of ranking pages? and compare with how serach engines do it now...

21:10:53 <libby> AF:oooo

21:11:00 <libby> AF:wheee

21:11:08 <edd> that good?

21:11:28 <pshab> AE:page quality? but very subjective... need more objective metic

21:11:29 <libby> it's nice

21:11:40 <libby> SMIL in XHTML

21:12:53 <pshab> AE:what is prob that user will like it enought ot make a link to it...? do it for all web users and get them to look at the pages and count votes- a democratic approach

21:13:42 <libby> AF:xhtml in SVG - sideways video, masking video...useful for dvds

21:14:42 <libby> AF:mobile people want to have MMS with video, text etc; interop very important for them

21:15:05 <libby> AF:xhtml/svg/mathml in mozilla (not on mac)

21:15:39 <pshab> AE:problme is that all pages dont' have equal cahnce of beign reached by browsing - can't tell difference between quality or lack of discoverabiltiy

21:15:47 <libby> AF:authoring, validation with DTD difficult

21:16:48 <pshab> AE:how to measure bias? 1) group users make one group not use engines, another use them compare results

21:16:51 <libby> AF:what media types are these mixed documents?

21:17:10 <pshab> AE:hard to do in practice - who would want to be in group 1?

21:17:36 <libby> AF:possibly - w3c write a document on how to use subsets of certin langauges together, and give it a media file

21:18:13 <pshab> AE:so create a simulation/model - random surfer model V search dominant model and cf. popularity evolution

21:18:37 <libby> AF:also: event handling, bubbling up, custom events; document time-line - who controls it? who owns the canvas? - needs a plug in architecture

21:18:42 <pshab> AE:explains models... in more detail

21:19:25 <libby> AF:styling - does svg style overwrite html style - scoping stylsheets not possible atm

21:19:38 <pshab> AE: three measures - popularity/visit popularity/awarness

21:20:22 <pshab> AE:popularity = quality x awarness of page

21:21:08 <libby> AF:webapplications - [Bert Bos's position paper for the webapps workshop|http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/webapps.html]

21:22:13 <libby> AF:webapps: hard to identify; one or more or less of: smaller than a real app; interactive; scripted; hosted by something (sometimes a browser); downloaded over a network

21:23:10 <libby> AF:need protocols: get, post, soap, xmlrpc, sockets...

21:23:36 <libby> AF:filesystem access; xml processing, xpath, timing and custom events

21:23:46 <pshab> AE:graph of random model surfer 3 phases to maturity of popularity

21:23:59 <libby> AF:user interfaces... XUL..?

21:24:14 <pshab> AE:relationship between visit popularity and popularity?

21:24:57 <pshab> AE:Search dominant model gives a step function? with much longer time to become popular than random model

21:25:22 <libby> AF:backwards compatible? dev independence - extracting app behaviour from platform specific details? security, authentication, writing to disk; packaging to user

21:25:24 <pshab> AE:!!

21:26:00 <pshab> AE:25 times longer time to maturity

21:26:14 <libby> AF:[webapps workshop on web apps and compound documents|http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/] - *lots* of papers, e.g. mobiles and telecom operators

21:26:45 <libby> AF:submissions have closed, but ask dean

21:27:02 <libby> AF:strong market demoand, lots of issues; time to tackle the mess

21:27:29 <pshab> AE:so study and modeling ... worriesome impact of search engines... need better measures of quality for search engines(? I think - missed that bit of the slide)

21:27:37 <libby> AF:should be very interesting in a year's time - get involved, join w3c, attend the workshop

21:28:50 * dajobe snorts with derision

21:29:31 * pshab wonders how loudly dajobe snorted

21:30:04 <libby> AF:related is the XBL stuff; joint taskforce ..

21:35:46 <maxf> maxf is now known as maxoff

22:28:02 <libby> anyone seen nick/steve?

22:28:15 <dajobe> not for a bit

22:28:20 <dajobe> off to poster session

22:46:46 <libby> hm.... http://w3photo.org/photos/www2004/DSC00068.rdf ...

22:46:54 <libby> [[

22:46:55 <libby> Warning: getimagesize(/home/w3photo/public_html/photos/www2004/photos/DSC00068.jpg): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /home/w3photo/wwwroot/w3photo.org/photos/w3photoMaster/fotonoteDisplay.inc on line 27

22:46:56 <libby> ]]

22:47:03 <libby> anyone seen greg elin?

22:55:09 <steadicat> gnome.org è giú?

23:26:34 <MacIntyre> MacIntyre is now known as bkdelong

23:32:32 <teefal> bingo update...

23:32:47 <teefal> potential name that's better than "conference bingo"

23:32:53 <teefal> "business card bingo"

23:33:08 <teefal> (see beginning of today's log for discussion)

23:33:32 <teefal> briefly, idea is to motivation photo upload/annotation by making bingo cards

23:34:08 <teefal> people fill in their card by codepiction to people with identity/interest/home location needed (who/what/where)

23:34:34 <edd> sounds more like the game "happy families"

23:34:43 <teefal> "excuse me, but i see someone on my bingo card"

23:34:44 <edd> well, not quite.

23:35:07 <edd> i like the idea, sounds fun.

23:35:16 <teefal> this came out of talk with libby last night... trying to motivate people to upload/annotate, but also seek out shyer participants

23:35:33 <teefal> looking for better name and explicit rules before it starts

23:35:51 <teefal> my folks can hopefully implement in next day or so

23:35:58 <teefal> as web app

23:36:20 <teefal> rules (can you get another card? does it have to be a picture, etc) are key

23:36:36 <teefal> another thought is ... and if you win?

23:37:09 <edd> you get to have your picture taken with TimBL?

23:37:21 <edd> he must weara hat of your choice?

23:37:27 <teefal> ha!

23:37:48 <teefal> actually, the earlier idea for a game was a google-styled ranking of interconnected people

23:37:57 <teefal> the "foaf 500" or "foaferati"

23:38:11 <mortenf> obvious prize: winner's picture on the front page of w3photo, with link

23:38:26 <teefal> the more "connected" people you codepict with .. the higher you rank (like google)

23:38:36 <teefal> we dismissed the idea for two reasons...

23:38:45 <teefal> 1) it drew even more attention to "hubs"

23:39:05 <teefal> 2) people would run up to timbl with a camera and say, "excuse me, smile, thanks..."

23:39:45 <edd> right. you should add a conditiopn like codepiction plus owning some DNA of the depictee

23:39:58 <edd> more uses for foaf:dnaChecksum

23:40:16 <teefal> yes... pluck a hair off of other foaferati

23:41:08 <teefal> we tried to flip the idea around and give higher ranking to being linked to "wallflowers" (non hubs), but that has many problems

23:41:16 <teefal> (such as people not wanting to be known as wallflowers)

23:41:45 <teefal> bingo has no ranking... it's random

23:42:18 <teefal> edd, you are foaf-a-matic person, yes?

23:42:25 <edd> no

23:42:30 <edd> that's leigh dodds

23:42:42 <teefal> hmm.. you wrote some early articles

23:42:49 <edd> yes, that's rihgt.

23:42:52 <teefal> and a recent foaf one

23:42:52 <edd> on developerWorks

23:42:53 <teefal> ok

23:42:59 <teefal> at conference?

23:43:10 <edd> no, reasons various prevented my attendance

23:43:40 <teefal> well, this afternoon, i may as well not be...stuck in hotel room making website for this

23:43:56 <bkdelong> Web site for what?

23:44:00 <bkdelong> the bingo?

23:44:18 <teefal> we have handouts we are giving people

23:44:44 <bkdelong> Ah gotcha.

23:44:49 <teefal>http://bigfractaltangle.com/archive/2004/05/18.jsp

23:44:50 <dc04> AG: http://bigfractaltangle.com/archive/2004/05/18.jsp from teefal

23:44:52 <bkdelong> Sorry for jumping in the middle...

23:45:34 <edd> AG:| my mind is mush

23:45:51 <teefal> wrong link..

23:45:53 <teefal> damn

23:45:58 <teefal> just realized i had two on the same day

23:46:06 <edd> set the rihgt one with AG:=http:///whatever

23:46:19 <bkdelong> heh

23:46:50 <bkdelong> Is that Chaals hair? http://w3photo.org/photos/www2004/PICT0002_2.FTW

23:48:20 <teefal> AG:| tidepool/storymill w3 handout

23:48:49 <teefal> i'm working on storymill.net, which currently doesn't exist

23:49:10 <teefal> it will be site where w3 photos will upload from tidepool

23:49:24 <teefal> (we implemented regions stuff)

23:49:38 <teefal> then cross-pollination between storymill.net and w3photo site

23:49:49 <teefal> bingo stuff will go on storymill.net (for now)

23:57:31 <teefal> i really want something dorky for a name, like "beach blanket bingo" (i have no idea where that came from)

23:57:43 <teefal> but "business card bingo" will do for now

23:57:53 <teefal> something with the same rhythm to the name